The General Election

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The General Election

1leigonj
apr 17, 2015, 7:41 am

There's a general election taking place on 7th May. Has anyone noticed?

2mart1n
apr 17, 2015, 8:12 am

Trying not to, which is easier said than done.

3TimSharrock
apr 17, 2015, 9:14 am

Oh for an interesting constituency...

4mart1n
apr 17, 2015, 10:07 am

Careful what you wish for. Friends of mine in Croydon report that it is suffering from regular infestations of politicos looking for babies to kiss etc.

5TimSharrock
apr 17, 2015, 11:43 am

>4 mart1n: yes, I did wonder about excessive phone calls... Graham Brady (our safe Conservative MP) did knock on our door last time, and seemed surprised to find a non-Conservative voter. We did not have any convenient babies to offer

6mart1n
apr 17, 2015, 12:01 pm

If a Tory knocked on my door I would be tempted to suggest they kiss my... Anyway, it's a safe labour seat, not much danger of that. Having accidentally stood for the greens in the local elections I'll vote for them I suppose, much good may it do.

7TimSharrock
apr 17, 2015, 12:26 pm

>6 mart1n: good luck!

8mart1n
apr 17, 2015, 12:36 pm

That was back last May. I didn't win, thank goodness.

9alaudacorax
apr 18, 2015, 6:53 am

>6 mart1n: - Having accidentally stood for the greens in the local elections ...

The mind boggles a bit on that statement - there's GOT to be a good short story to be written about that.

10alaudacorax
apr 18, 2015, 7:25 am

This election is doing nothing to lower my levels of cynicism.

'Reading between the lines' of the assorted pundits and media types talking about it on radio and telly, it's fairly clear that they regard the politicians' election promises as pretty much just lying through the teeth. But what appals me is that they seem to regard it as perfectly legitimate and 'part of the game'. These people (the media types, I mean) seem to be totally cynical about it and, yet, at the same time thoroughly enthused by the 'game'.

It's all an useful corrective, though. My naturally sunny disposition has an unfortunate tendency to make me occasionally forget that the high-flying politician almost always has the ethics and integrity of a rabid weasel with paranoia - and that 'almost always' is probably just excluding those whose essential corruption I just haven't spotted yet.

It gets harder every time ... don't want to vote for anyone ... don't want to not vote ...

11mart1n
apr 18, 2015, 1:37 pm

>9 alaudacorax:

Well, I got talked into it by a friend who's locally active in the Green Party. Basically they wanted paper candidates to make up the numbers so that they had someone standing in all wards. I treated it as a bit of a joke - my campaigning was limited to canvassing my girlfriend and the next door neighbours over the fence. About which I felt rather guilty when I went along to the count and met other greenies who'd clearly put in a lot of effort to raising local consciousness and all that, despite having bugger all chance of actually being elected.

The count was sort of interesting, not having been to one before. The tellers laboriously work their way through the ballot papers with the candidates and hangers on watching their every move eagle-eyed to make sure that they don't lose out due to an error. Eventually the results were announced. The Labour supporters triumphalism at every defeat of an incumbent Conservative or Lib-Dem was a little over-done, given the barrel-based fish-shooting nature of the game (the LDs were getting maybe 20-25% of the votes they received at the previous election). Though of course the Greens all went mental when we retained our single seat (by no means a foregone conclusion, as the well-known incumbent was being replaced with a new boy). All of the wards returned three councilors each, and in general people clearly vote for the party rather than the candidate. Another exception to this was the ward where one of the Tory candidates had a conspicuously African name - he got half the votes of the other two. Nice. Final score - Labour 53, Green 1.

Anyway, my welcome defeat was probably the end of my political career, but you never know.

P.S. Vote Green! It'll almost certainly make no difference, but it'll provide a sound position to whinge about whoever does get in, and the system in general.

12pokarekareana
apr 18, 2015, 4:35 pm

>11 mart1n: That is a brilliant story.

I think we may be entering an interesting transition period in which single-party majorities become a thing of the past, and we see all manner of technicolour glories tramping back and forth between government and opposition. I hope that we can revisit the question of electoral reform, because First Past The Post doesn't suit our new political landscape.

With all this General Election chatter going on, I only discovered today that we are having a local election too. Our two local libraries have been earmarked for closure so I may investigate what each of the parties have to say about that.

13abbottthomas
apr 18, 2015, 5:05 pm

>11 mart1n: I used to quite like the Greens when they stood for free-range organic energy and were saving the planet but as far as I can see the current Antipodean leader is mad as a tree - somewhere to the left of Vladimir Ilyich and Uncle Joe. There aren't enough rich people to tax into oblivion to pay for all her crazy plans. Ed will have a hard time if she is elected with a few cronies as well as that nice Welsh lady and lots of Nicola "Fan-dabi-Dozy" Sturgeon's mates. Poor guy won't stand a chance!

14mart1n
apr 19, 2015, 3:05 am

>13 abbottthomas: Well yeah, but I'll take social justice, environmentalism and an optimistic approach to the economy over what the others have to offer. All pretty academic really - looks like they'll end up with somewhere between 0 and 1 MPs. As you say, it's the nats who may well end up being the kingmakers, which could make for interesting times. It does trouble me that there's no national party of the left these days.

15Helenliz
maj 7, 2015, 4:57 pm

I've voted. I've voted in every election I've been eligible, but with decreasing levels of enthusiasm such that I was seriously tempted to spoil my paper this time. Oh for someone with some strength of character, some social skills, a spot of gumption, maybe even some inspiration, someone I could actually believe in.

We had 3 papers, 1 vote for parliament, 2 for district council and 13 for the parish council. There were only 14 names on the last paper - can you imagine being the person who was not elected...

16pokarekareana
maj 8, 2015, 9:54 am

Well, that was a bit of a surprise, and not one that I welcome. Grim.

17alaudacorax
maj 8, 2015, 10:37 am

I wish the BBC results page would give a breakdown of who lost how many seats to whom.

If the Lib-Dems lost that many seats, I would assume it was for putting and keeping the Tories in power - I don't see where else they've done something any worse than the other parties to so much attract the electorate's ire. But I'm obviously wrong - if I was right, you'd expect Labour to have had the benefit of their losses, which doesn't seem to have happened. So I'm confused. And just to confuse the issue further, the Tories had a small increase in their overall voter share, but not as much as Labour did - and that in spite of the hammering Labour took in Scotland.

I can't make head or tail of it.

18abbottthomas
maj 8, 2015, 11:34 am

>17 alaudacorax:. You and a lot of other people, I guess. Just think of all the constitutional experts that the BBC, ITV, etc. will have booked to pontificate about coalitions, minority governments, legitimacy and such who now have to be cancelled.

I am not surprised by the large proportion of the votes given to UKIP, even if not translated into seats. I am sure that represents the feelings of a sizeable number of UK electors about immigration - it has become an almost respectable way of supporting the BNP.

I don't much envy Cameron the next year or two trying to control some of his back benchers - John Major's "bastards". Interesting times!

19Helenliz
maj 8, 2015, 11:38 am

They're saying the next election will be 7th may 2020. Does the fixed term parliament act mean that the government can't go to the polls earlier? not sure how that's supposed to work...

Turnout seems higher than usual. 70% in our constituency, but then we seem to have swapped colour at the last few elections. Maybe that makes people feel their vote matters, if it can be seen making a difference.

20abbottthomas
maj 8, 2015, 12:16 pm

>19 Helenliz: My understanding is that the incumbent government can't, as before, just choose a time to call the election but if they lose a vote of confidence then they have to go to the country.

21andyl
maj 8, 2015, 1:35 pm

>20 abbottthomas:

They have to lose a vote of no confidence then there is 14 days in which they can try and pass a motion of confidence before the election is triggered.

A new election can also be triggered if 2/3rds of all the MPs decide that an election is needed.

22pokarekareana
maj 8, 2015, 1:51 pm

>20 abbottthomas: I agree, and I think that an early election can be called but it has to win the support of a majority of MPs.

It has been the highest turnout since 1997 - just over 66%, I think. It was 72% in my constituency, and the polling station I worked in yesterday was certainly madly busy for much of the day.

I think the LibDems lost a few of their key big-city seats due to the student vote revolting against the increase in tuition fees. I think there is also a lot of ire because of the LibDem's failure to oppose the Tories in making changes to the welfare system (e.g. the bedroom tax). The LibDem losses didn't shift to Labour partly because there are plenty of people around who blame Labour for causing the economic downturn (who conveniently forget that there was a global economic crisis, in my opinion) and partly because the smaller parties have done a good job at picking up disaffected LibDem voters.

The first-past-the-post system has many quirks and foibles that mean that there is basically no correlation between the number of votes cast nationwide for each party and the number of MPs that land up in the Commons. Some manner of electoral reform might have addressed that, but I doubt that's going to happen under a Tory government.

23Cynfelyn
maj 8, 2015, 2:48 pm

>18 abbottthomas: "I am not surprised by the large proportion of the votes given to UKIP, even if not translated into seats. I am sure that represents the feelings of a sizeable number of UK electors about immigration - it has become an almost respectable way of supporting the BNP."

As with so many of these things, it's not quite so easy as "UK electors". According to the BBC, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results, UKIP won 14.1% and 13.6% of the vote in England and Wales respectively, roughly the same level of support.

But they were thoroughly rejected in Scotland, getting only 1.6% of the vote. The SNP took 50.0% of the vote (a conveniently round number). Of the other 50%: Labour (24.3%), Conservatives (14.9%), LibDems (7.5%), UKIP (1.8%), Greens (1.3%), others (0.3%). UKIP in Scotland polled only one-eighth as strongly in Scotland as in England and Wales. Even among the "Unionist" half of the Scottish vote, they only took a quarter of the votes they took south of the border.

Curiously, UKIP also won 2.6% of the vote in Northern Ireland, being one of the few "UK" parties to contest constituencies in the Six Counties. I don't suppose for a moment that this shows the NI electorate is more socially liberal than the British electorates, merely that they were competing for the bigot vote in a crowded market.

24abbottthomas
maj 8, 2015, 8:52 pm

>23 Cynfelyn: ....they were competing for the bigot vote in a crowded market.

Nice one ;-)

25BuffaloPhil
maj 9, 2015, 7:21 am

So there are now more pandas in Scotland than Labour MPs. For some reason that amuses me.

Cynfelyn - I think that in England and to a lesser extent Wales, UKIP were seen as the viable "non-Tory-or-Labour" protest vote and a lot of people took up that option. In Scotland the role was fulfilled extremely successfully by the SNP and and NI the situation doesn't arise. So I think those results simply bear out that they are voted for as much more of a protest party than a viable government.

26leigonj
maj 9, 2015, 10:13 am

>25 BuffaloPhil: To dismiss UKIP as little more than a protest vote is to very much underestimate things. Firstly, their opposition to the EU wins them votes. More substantially though, a large number of people identify with UKIP as 'their' party (they have developed a core support of mainly working class/ lower middle class men) in much the same way Labour has a core/ tribal support who will vote for them pretty much regardless of policy. Finally, their manifesto was, in some ways, sensible, as well as being fully costed, so one or two people - the ones who aren't parroting the labels they've been taught - might have actually have been won over that way.

27BuffaloPhil
maj 10, 2015, 12:19 pm

Fair point leigonj. I think what I meant by that was more along the lines of 'a vote for a party that has little to no chance of forming anything more than a small proportion of a coalition government'. And I would be very surprised if this election isn't the zenith of their success at least in terms of general elections.

I do appreciate that quite a lot of their policies are very attractive to a lot of people, but they're undone by the more extreme policies. At least (unlike the Greens) as you say their policies are realistically costed.

28Polaris-
maj 10, 2015, 1:28 pm

Here's how the election result would look if we had an electoral system that was proportional to the vote. Quite a difference, though the likeliest outcome of such a system appears to be a Conservative-UKIP-DUP coalition!

But at least everybody's vote would count.

29andyl
maj 10, 2015, 4:58 pm

>28 Polaris-:

There would be no need for the DUP in the Conservative-UKIP coalition if the system delivered the same results as PR

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/heres-how-the-election-results-would-look-...

30Polaris-
maj 10, 2015, 6:50 pm

Hallelujah for small hypothetical mercies!

31mart1n
maj 11, 2015, 3:05 am

>28 Polaris-: These projections are somewhat spurious, as they assume that people would vote the same under PR. At the moment, in any seat that's even vaguely marginal the tendency is to vote for the party you least object to out of those with a chance of winning. Under PR, there's a point in voting for the party you actually believe in. Alternatively, there's an optimistic view that many people wouldn't have voted for the kippers if they thought there was any danger of them actually winning the seat; the idea was just to stick one to the man. I have no idea how these would balance out...

32Polaris-
maj 11, 2015, 3:42 am

>31 mart1n: Very good points of course, you are right. I just thought it was worth highlighting the egregious nature of the results the first-past-the-post system throws up.

One of the LibDems' biggest mistakes, surely, must have been agreeing to the referendum being a question of accepting AV or not - a much flawed version of PR - as opposed to whether the electoral system as a whole needed fully reforming, which it so obviously does.

33mart1n
maj 11, 2015, 4:18 am

>32 Polaris-: Quite so. I think that's pretty much the story of the last 5 years for the LDs - ending up having to accept a compromise that was so far from what they wanted that their input was pretty much useless. Having said that, I'd rather the tories had to vaguely placate the LDs than their own right wing.

34alaudacorax
maj 17, 2015, 4:19 am

Any thoughts on the idea I heard one journalist express that the British have taken to lying through their teeth to the pollsters? I've never been asked so I've had no chance to lie, but, if I ever was, I suspect my sense of mischief might get the better of me. I've always felt that there's something 'not quite playing the game' about exit polls.

35Helenliz
maj 17, 2015, 8:32 am

I never tell any of the tellers or pollsters who I have voted for. I'm more likely to give them a lecture on why I don't have to give them my voter number, or how the question "can I ask you who you voted for?" is a question of capability, not permission and even if they had asked the right question, I'd not be telling them the answer.

All of which I can make last for a good 10 minutes, thus saving a significant number of other people from being bothered by them. You have to have some fun while exercising your democratic right, and that's mine. >:-)

36alaudacorax
maj 17, 2015, 7:44 pm

>35 Helenliz: - A rather wonderful lady (and just a tiny bit scary) ...

37CliffordDorset
maj 31, 2015, 6:47 pm

>21 andyl:

"2/3rds of all the MPs decide that an election is needed"

or 100% of turkeys voting for Christmas ...

38dtw42
Redigerat: jun 21, 2015, 1:53 pm

>35 Helenliz:May I ask who you voted for?” “Yes.” {waits for them to do so ...}

39proximity1
Redigerat: nov 19, 2019, 8:08 am

LOL! No posts since 2015!

Well, then,

Four and a half years later...

Britain is still, politically, a place hopelessly lost and suicidally-stupid.

The sheer ineptitude of the British political class is almost beyond the capacity of the English language to adequately express (but this is a start).

With twenty-two days until polling day, the public are offered three embarrassingly stupid, foolish and incompetent party-heads from which to "choose": Boris Johnson, for the criminally selfish and sadistic corporate ruling-elite; Jeremy Corbyn, for the intellectually, morally, and organizationally incompetent "no-fear-because-you'd-hardly-even-notice-we're-not-even-here" laughing-out-loud fools who have the nerve to call themselves a "Labour" party. (ETA) Oh! dear! Well, now, I confess I did just plumb forget that moron standing for the Lib Dems!, Jo Swinson. Somehow I don't see that this requires an explanation. She is so exquisitely forgettable, after all. The perfect person to lead a political party which, itself, "forgot to have an idea."

"God damn this idiotic country!" ? Why bother beseeching the Almighty's condemnation? Why bother? When Britain and today's Britons damn themselves to an extent which leaves God with nothing to do but look on, twiddling his thumbs—why bother God about adding His bit?

"Damn us? No need, Relax, God, Almighty. 'We got this.' We fuck ourselves."

__________________

There's the "Brexit Party" and, yes, it's a real party; that is not a joke. They have, in effect, only one point going for them which no other "major" party (LOL!) has: they appear to be serious about getting Britain the hell out of the E.U. once and for all. Beyond that, one night as well have the Tories in power. But, so important is getting Britain the hell out of the E.U. that, with virtually no other metric by which to judge and choose, one is practically bound to do worse by voting for a party other than Brexit.

The country shall, of course, still be eye-ball-deep in shit but at least it shall be British shit, for God's sake! I admit that Nigel Farage is more than a bit of a goon. But this is a testament to how truly terribly bad things are.

40tendring
nov 25, 2019, 6:00 am

So you ae back-still promoting pro-Brexit drivel

Incidenntly if the Brexit party is so wonderful why has it cosied up to the Conservatives so that in many constituencies people cannot vote for them even if they have a tactical reason or are otherwise stupid enough to support them.

41abbottthomas
nov 25, 2019, 6:56 am

VOTE LIB-DEM!

42Cynfelyn
nov 25, 2019, 4:20 pm

>41 abbottthomas: Thanks for the suggestion, but you know what, no, I don't think I will.

43abbottthomas
nov 25, 2019, 6:08 pm

>42 Cynfelyn: You seem like a reasonable person - Plaid Cwmru then? The two parties have come to an arrangement.

Surely you can't be die-hard Labour? It doesn't bear thinking about!

44Helenliz
nov 26, 2019, 1:01 am

It feels like the choice is who is the least worst. It's not a pleasant decision. I fancy being back in student union days and voting for RON.

45Cynfelyn
nov 26, 2019, 1:05 pm

>43 abbottthomas: My constituency, Ceredigion, is a Plaid Cymru - Liberal Democrat marginal. With only 104 votes between them, there is no stand-aside arrangement here! On the other hand, I'm happy to say that Labour has not won the seat since the 1970s, and the Conservatives not since the 1870s.

We also voted Remain by 54.6 : 45.4, research suggesting that the Leave vote included many farming families, many of which have now changed their minds. I think there are more than enough Remain voters here for this not to be a "Brexit election", but the traditional tussle between Plaid Cymru (redder than Labour) and the Lib-Dems (Independents in local government = Tories who tell themselves they're Conservative with a small "c").

As a smaller than average constituency containing two (admittedly small) universities, I can imagine the result coming down (again) to how many students decide to vote here as opposed to voting at home.

Good grief, I see you have Dominic Raab!! A whole other kettle of fish.

46abbottthomas
nov 26, 2019, 6:36 pm

>45 Cynfelyn: Just been to the hustings where, if it had been down to the clapometer, my favoured candidate, LibDem Monica Harding, would be on her way to Westminster. Raab had a huge majority last time but he is on slippery ground. The best thing tonight was when he told us that he had had a 50% pay cut when he resigned as Brexit Secretary "as a matter of principle": the whole audience responded with an "Aaaah!" (poor baby!). Watch the numbers - he could go.

My great grandfather was a Ceredigion man, born in Sarnau and went to sea from Llangrannog. I hope you can turn those southern Welsh who were daft enough to vote Leave, not recognising on which side their European bread was buttered. From a Westminster point of view I hope the LibDems get it but I wouldn't be too sad about a Plaid victory.

47pokarekareana
nov 29, 2019, 10:33 am

My ballot paper has landed on the doormat here in sunny Bristol West. We've currently got a Labour MP (who got a bigger majority than Diane Abbott in 2017, if I recall correctly) who has been a vocal critic of Jeremy Corbyn and is an ardent Remainer, which goes down very well around here. The Lib Dem candidate has stood aside in favour of the Greens, who seem to have their eye on us as a potential second seat for them. This feels a bit uncomfortable for a seat which was Lib Dem from 1992 all the way through until 2015, so never got swept away with New Labour excitement. I've come across one or two people who are decidedly grumpy about not having the yellow option.

Apparently we've also got a Tory candidate and a Brexit Party candidate, neither of whom have even bothered with any flyers and presumably stand very little chance of getting many votes between them.

Hmm. Decision time. None of the options seem especially wonderful to me, and it will ultimately come down to making a decision between local and national issues, for me. Where did I put that clothes-peg?

48reading_fox
nov 29, 2019, 11:33 am

I moved a couple of elections ago (not that many years!) from the 12th safest seat in the country to the 17th. Both Lab since the 1800s or something ridiculous. I will vote, because I always do, but there's very little point, and it won't even manage to register as protest.

49Helenliz
nov 29, 2019, 1:04 pm

>48 reading_fox: whereas I live in a constituency that has changed party in something like 4 of the last 5 elections (including a bye election). We're currently blue, but the majority is less than 5%. So I know my vote does make a difference. Had to queue to vote at the last election, which was a new experience.

50Cynfelyn
nov 29, 2019, 3:07 pm

>47 pokarekareana: "Hmm. Decision time."

Not strictly. You can sit on it for a week or more, and see how things pan out.

51Suspected.Spam
jun 18, 2020, 9:16 am

You've all gone very quiet. What happened in the end?

52Cynfelyn
jun 18, 2020, 10:01 am

>51 Suspected.Spam: Nothing good.

53abbottthomas
jun 19, 2020, 6:13 pm

>51 Suspected.Spam: That's an understatement.

54pokarekareana
jun 20, 2020, 5:26 pm

Oh yeah... we had an election six months ago. Forgot about that.

55Suspected.Spam
jun 21, 2020, 5:13 am

>54 pokarekareana:

The vicar from the pulpit said: "Do not worry. 95% of what people worry about never happens."

A man in the front pews replied: "So it works then?"

I enjoyed following you all on this thread but you'd all have more fun here:

https://www.librarything.com/groups/jesusandmocartoons

56abbottthomas
jun 21, 2020, 2:07 pm

>55 Suspected.Spam: Thanks for that link - certainly much more fun than Boris et al.

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