Group Read: The Cromwell Trilogy: Bring Up The Bodies

Den här diskussionen är en fortsättning på: Group Read: The Cromwell Trilogy

DiskuteraClub Read 2021

Bara medlemmar i LibraryThing kan skriva.

Group Read: The Cromwell Trilogy: Bring Up The Bodies

1rhian_of_oz
Redigerat: feb 26, 2021, 10:54 am

It's just about March so time to open up a new thread for the discussion of the second book in Hilary Mantel's Cromwell trilogy.

There aren't rules per se but the following would be appreciated:
  • Only post about a book on or after the first day of each read.
  • Include information on the book and chapter/page you're posting about to help other avoid spoilers.
  • Hide or flag spoilers.
  • 2cindydavid4
    feb 27, 2021, 9:37 am

    As I mentioned above, Im juggling like four books for book groups this week, so I'll be getting to this one soon!

    3AlisonY
    feb 28, 2021, 11:30 am

    March already?! I've still a bit to finish on my current book too - hopefully I'll start towards the weekend. Not getting much reading time at the moment.

    4dchaikin
    mar 1, 2021, 10:18 am

    I’ll join late, after I read Bend Sinister which I somehow thought was possible in my February goals, but which I only just started. Anyway, this will be next, hopefully I’ll start next week.

    5rhian_of_oz
    mar 2, 2021, 1:30 am

    Part 1 Chapter 1 page 7

    Ms Mantel eloquently describes Cromwell in one long paragraph, a description I struggled to articulate in many. This is why she is a multi-Man Booker prize winner and I (most definitely) am not.

    I literally sighed in satisfaction after reading it.

    6gsm235
    Redigerat: mar 2, 2021, 6:19 pm

    I finished this weekend. I won't say a lot until more folks are done others than I liked this novel slightly more than Wolf Hall. I read it on Kindle with the audio book playing and highlighting each row of text along with the narration.

    One of my passages, early in the book, page 15 on my edition, Cromwell was listening to others speak about Wolsey. "Thomas Cromwell. He loved the cardinal. Everyone knows it. His expression is as carefully blank as a freshly painted wall." This is how is see Cromwell. He holds it in. Nobody sees inside.

    7cindydavid4
    mar 2, 2021, 11:33 pm

    Marc Rylance was so good at this, throughout the series

    8rhian_of_oz
    mar 4, 2021, 7:04 am

    Part 1 Chapter 2 page 49

    I'm resisting looking him up, but I am looking forward to what I hope is a comeuppance for Francis Weston.

    9cindydavid4
    mar 4, 2021, 8:40 am

    actually from the time I met him on my first read, I wanted major comeuppance for Mark Semton, Wolseys former staff and now bard of the bed chamber. Stay tuned.

    pg 168 So was the part about cromwells cpr on henry actually true? Ive been looking but cant come up with the goods. If its not true, Mantel did an amazing job of making us think so. Interesting that the first time I read this I completely missed the convo of Crom and Harry (I read these so much we are on familiar terms) pg176 "Crumb, you know this never happened" He nods, what records remain he is already in the process of expunging.Afterwards it will be simply known that on such and such a date, Henry's horse stumbled So who says the ministry of truth in 1984 was a new idea?

    10cindydavid4
    Redigerat: mar 7, 2021, 9:04 am

    There is a section from pg181 to 199 that I must have skimmed or skipped over the last few times because aside from Henry's sudden consideration of Anne after her miscarriage, everything else to me seems really new in this reread. Which is why I love these books there is so much one misses when just reading for the meat,but after awhile your reread suddenly brings a feast..

    11rhian_of_oz
    mar 10, 2021, 3:34 am

    How is everyone going with their reading? I know Greg has already finished and Dan has yet to start.

    Part 1 Chapter 2 page 94

    Thoughts about Cromwell 'raiding' abbeys and convents to "pay for England".
    In the thread about Wolf Hall there was a bit of a discussion about Cromwell's negative impact on 'the Church', which I understand. However the Catholic Church was (and still is) extremely wealthy and wasn't using that wealth to help 'the people' but instead were using it to prop their own power. So I have no problem with this wealth being redirected.

    I have thoughts about other things but I'm a bit time-poor at the moment so they'll need to wait.

    12cindydavid4
    Redigerat: mar 10, 2021, 6:12 am

    For me it wasn't so much that the wealth was redirected (well among the already wealthy of course) but the destruction of archtecture, art work, and centuries old artifacts was unconscionable to me as I traveled around britain. Of course few cared about this back in that day, but as a history nerd in college, it broke me heart!

    You are right of course, the church is still very wealthy and very powerful. But while I enjoy the portrayal of cromwell in this series doubt that cromwell or henry were interested in helping the people, really. Could be wrong (basing this off my reading of A Man on a Donkey, about the rebellion started in Norfolk over the destruction of the church.

    Oh and I have finished, but have several sections Im intersted it talking about; I will bide my time :)

    13AlisonY
    mar 10, 2021, 8:13 am

    I've started but I'm making slow progress. I've had a bad week on a number of fronts, so my head's not quite in the right place for taking it in. Hopefully will catch up soon.

    14sallypursell
    mar 10, 2021, 11:47 pm

    Oh, I haven't started yet, either. I got a lot of library books at the end of February, books that I had been waiting for! I must read those first, plus one that my eye doctor loaned me, a history of the fall of Rome, which sounds great.

    15AlisonY
    mar 14, 2021, 6:51 pm

    I've just finished Part One (p.183, although I'm not recognising some scenes Cindy has mentioned in earlier pages in her copy, so I suspect we're reading differently formatted editions. I own a few US paperbacks and I think they tend to be slightly larger than UK paperbacks, so I suspect there is more print to each page).

    Thoughts so far: I didn't think I was in the mood for starting this second book in the trilogy but actually I'm really enjoying it. There's a deep tension in this book, a palpable sense of everyone looking over their shoulders all the time, with the balance of power is perpetually on a knife's edge. Henry remains tense about Rome, his heirdom and protecting his reign and power. Anne is tense about her position in Henry's favour. Trust between those at court seems non-existent.

    Cromwell remains a player in my eyes, but so far in this book I feel sympathetic towards him. His lowly origins are never far from someone's lips, and it seems he feels he has to perpetually work hard to stay ahead of the game. He knows it to be a game, this world of the upper echelons of England, but he knows it to be a dangerous game too, where one false move at this level can put your own life at jeopardy. But yet it's a game he wants to play. I'm still not sure of his motives for wanting to be at the table. Is it about money? Power? I don't feel it's about loyalty to the King; although his loyalty can't be disputed at this point, I feel that loyalty is driven by what he gets out of it. Perhaps he's driven by his lowly upbringing and a constant need to prove himself.

    I like how his dark horse demeanour rattles the other senior players at court, especially that he never seems to be rattled by them, no matter how hard they try.

    16cindydavid4
    Redigerat: mar 14, 2021, 7:50 pm

    >15 AlisonY: I am reading from a hardback so yes pages may be different, think I should go back and find the chapters. the one I wrote of is a convo between Cranmer and Cromwelll, and it continues for seeral pages, its in the chapter entitled The Black Boook

    as for his motive, he defiintly has one , and it was a surprise for me; just didn't see that coming (stay tuned) and you are right, he very much likes the playing this game and everyone is on knifes edge

    I am reading Time and Chance a HF by the recent late Sharon Kay Penman, about Henry II, Eleanor, and Thomas Beckett. Given the problems Henry was having with the church at that time, Im surprised someone like Cromwell hadn't happened long before the time of this novel!

    17AlisonY
    mar 17, 2021, 12:46 pm

    I'm on the last section now (totally gripped). As we're in the build up to Anne's downfall, I can't help but think about how Mantel is very much positioning Anne as a scheming manipulator and a character that we shouldn't feel much sympathy for. We know she did a tonne of research before writing the trilogy, but I can't help but wonder is this really the truth, or is it more the fact that the people writing about the court events at the time were most likely those in positions of power in whose interest it was to present her in that negative light?

    18cindydavid4
    mar 17, 2021, 6:14 pm

    Read her excellent author notes at the end, all will be explained. And actually believe me she made enough enemies that not only did they want to put her in negative light, but some of them helped along rumors of incest and withcraft that contines to this day.

    19rhian_of_oz
    mar 18, 2021, 7:21 am

    I've just read the exchange between Cromwell and Christophe at the end of Part One. Gave me a chuckle.

    20AlisonY
    mar 18, 2021, 1:24 pm

    I'm going for the big finish tonight. I've enjoyed this second book even more than the first.

    21AlisonY
    Redigerat: mar 18, 2021, 5:00 pm

    I'm done! Wow, loved that. What a great read. The hairs stood up on the back of my neck when Anne, etc. had their last moments (I'm assuming no spoilers - pretty well known in history).

    I felt sorry for Cromwell by the end of this book. A true case of be careful what you wish for. He's in so deep now there's no going back, yet he's acutely aware the ground feels anything but solid beneath him.

    22cindydavid4
    mar 18, 2021, 8:20 pm

    >19 rhian_of_oz: Oh I love the character of Christophe; loved him from the first time they met in france while he was stealing the gold plate....So glad she included him (Im assuming he was invented, but it feels so real!)

    23cindydavid4
    Redigerat: mar 18, 2021, 8:30 pm

    >21 AlisonY: we don't know; as she says in her notes, there were no transcipts of her trial, and no 'letter' that she wrote and uncertain what her last words were. But Hilary does manage to make her last moments so real, that I would hardly question them. And it also made me feel much more sympathetic to Anne, to have loved so deeply and given all she could, to be abandoned by the man she thought she knew. And how easy it is to get people to give 'testimony' and easily twisting their words to make there own truth


    Did you pick up on why he wanted those men in particular killed, and not Wyatt? Yes revenge is sweet, but Karma is a bitch just saying!

    24AlisonY
    mar 19, 2021, 3:52 am

    >23 cindydavid4: Well yes - Cromwell managed to suit himself at the same time in the matter in the end, but I still felt desperately sorry for the 5 men. Apart from Mark there really wasn't much to go on in terms of what they had or hadn't done, yet they all paid the ultimate price. Wyatt was equally if not more culpable. Working at court really was a dangerous place to be in those days.

    25cindydavid4
    Redigerat: mar 19, 2021, 10:13 pm

    Cromwell would probably say they deserved it for dishonoring Wolsley but yeah, he kept that grudge for a very long time, planning how to work it. I felt sorry for them and their families. Also realized the hypocrisy that Henry had done worse with her sister for so long and no one batted an eye. Definitely a dangerous place, tho in any court, anywhere, any time (read the court of the lion a fascinating very well researched and well written account of the happenings in the T'Ang Dynasty. Dangerous games they play boggle the mind.

    26AlisonY
    mar 20, 2021, 8:38 am

    >25 cindydavid4: Interesting when you put those dangerous court games into the modern day context. It still goes on in many places but is just played in different ways.

    Is our book 3 read in March or April? The paperback doesn't come out in the UK until late April, and I'm not so keen on hardbacks.

    27rhian_of_oz
    mar 20, 2021, 8:56 am

    >26 AlisonY: Book three starts in May - I allowed two months for each book.

    28AlisonY
    mar 20, 2021, 1:16 pm

    >27 rhian_of_oz: Perfect! I'll hold off on ordering then until the paperback is released.

    29cindydavid4
    mar 20, 2021, 2:11 pm

    Well I won't be able to wait; but I promise to be quiet...... :)

    30dchaikin
    mar 22, 2021, 10:16 am

    Finally started book 2 yesterday. Feels like I'm just getting my feet wet, but also it feels like it's a faster easier read than WH. (Asking myself if I read slower.) And, at least so far, "he" has been replaced with "he, Cromwell", which is interesting and maybe changes the feel. I'll read this wondering about Cromwell's motivations hinted at above.

    31AlisonY
    mar 23, 2021, 5:42 am

    >30 dchaikin: I definitely zipped through it faster than WH, Dan. I think there's a lot of dramatic tension that sweeps you along.

    32dchaikin
    mar 27, 2021, 1:00 pm

    >31 AlisonY: yeah. Also less plot set-up and less new characters. Seems we already know all the important people...well so far

    I finished part one this morning (page 153). I can't place what is my mood and what is real, but this reads easier and is less rewarding for me than Wolf Hall. I suspect my head naturally puts those two things in inverse, so it might not mean anything. And don't read that the wrong way, I still admire this book. But I did feel that WH had an intimacy into Cromwell and his mindset and, while I see the book making effort for that here, I'm not feeling it much. Mostly it's just plot flowing. My thoughts are along the lines of: when will Katherine finally die? when will Anne finally really misstep? when will something important happen with Jane? They are not, like in WH, wondering if I would think like Cromwell does, or, the wait-who-is-that-in-history wondering thoughts. I'm not googling.

    33AlisonY
    mar 27, 2021, 2:46 pm

    >32 dchaikin: Interesting. I wonder how much of that is the writing versus the point in history that this second book is covering, i.e. which we all know about and are waiting to happen.

    34cindydavid4
    Redigerat: mar 27, 2021, 10:06 pm

    >32 dchaikin: but this reads easier and is less rewarding for me than Wolf Hall.

    I think this in part because we know the history here, we know the end is a foregone conclusion. I was rewarded tho to see how Cromwell set up his plan and executed it (um sorry, just couldn't stop myself ) Also having already read the last book, I saw so many red flags and warning signs that its a wonder he didn't.

    ETA >31 AlisonY: GMTA!!!!And yet, there is so much more that I learned about the time period and how the characters came to life for me, esp Katharine and Cromwell himself, actually showing his true colors

    35cindydavid4
    mar 27, 2021, 10:07 pm

    So did you guys figure out his motive? (use spoiler)

    36dchaikin
    mar 27, 2021, 10:26 pm

    >33 AlisonY: hmm. On the writing, the feel is a little different. I like that. Gives this book it's own textural fingerprint. So, I think the writing plays a role. And I don't think it's the point in history so much as the point in her story (ok, couldn't resist that. Probably I should have.) I mean she is doing different stuff at this point. She is doing doing mid-point of story arc stuff, where in WH she was setting things up. I'm assuming I'm right about it being different when I say all this. Is it really?

    >34 cindydavid4: I think the history was always a foregone conclusion, so I'm not sure that's different here than in WH. But this plan - that's something I look forward to seeing.

    >35 cindydavid4: I'll keep this question in mind.

    37cindydavid4
    Redigerat: mar 27, 2021, 11:44 pm

    >36 dchaikin: She is doing doing mid-point of story arc stuff, where in WH she was setting things up

    Well she was planning on a third book to finish the arc, don't think she realized it would take her ten years to finish it!

    And while its true its all a foregone conclusion, In WH we didn't know his role in her downfall, and I wondered how that came about. Also I thought the life of this character so interesting and new to me. So its a bit different.

    speaking of characters above,meant to add, I also enjoyed reading about 'his boys', the young men whom he trained and cared for, and their roles in this, and in their relationships. Would have loved to know more about why Rafe's parents sent him off when he was so young, but it all ended well.

    38AlisonY
    mar 28, 2021, 4:47 am

    >35 cindydavid4: On the motive, are you referring to his ultimate motive on pushing Anne and her supposed suitors under a bus, or general motive for rising up the ranks? On the former it felt like he was very driven by revenge for Wolsey, but I don't feel it was only that. He had a dirty job to do which I didn't necessarily feel he particularly wanted to do, but given he had to do it then I expect he got some satisfaction in who he picked for the chop. On the latter, it now feels more obviously money related. Power yes, but money first. He enjoys the kick-backs he gets from his positions.

    >36 dchaikin: I think I know what you mean. BOTB is definitely more plot focused, whereas now you're encouraging me to think about it I definitely spent a lot longer pondering about motives and character psychology in WH. You're spot on that WH feels like the scene setter to BOTB.

    39cindydavid4
    Redigerat: mar 28, 2021, 10:47 am

    >38 AlisonY: On the motive, are you referring to his ultimate motive on pushing Anne and her supposed suitors under a bus, or general motive for rising up the ranks? the former it felt like he was very driven by revenge for Wolsey, but I don't feel it was only that

    Oh yeah I think it was mostly the former, tho the want of power and money was there too. I definitly was enjoying his perks, and agree it was a job he really didn't want to do. And at this point I think he was getting very suspicious of Henry's sanity, esp when He Henry felt sorry for it after the fact. But I think he enoyed it more than he thought he would, tho here is a quote attributed to Twain, tho its in question, but still apt here "I wish no body dead but there are some obituaries I read with pleasure"

    >39 cindydavid4: I definitely spent a lot longer pondering about motives and character psychology in WH

    me too, which is probably why I return to those books at least once a year - looking for more

    40cindydavid4
    Redigerat: mar 29, 2021, 5:36 pm

    >38 AlisonY: Started reading the third book (no spoilers) I thought more about your question. When Wolsley was taken down, Cromwell went out of the way to show him how he can slow the whole thing down (oh gee sorry you need to have a special paper before you can toss him on the street) take care to make him comfortable as he was moved him around and defend him when he ould' when he died all he could do do was grieve (love that moment when - cant remember who- catches cromwell crying.) And consider how he says once his heart was soft aand now he finds that all the death has turned it to stone

    Also he needs to plan what happens next to him andhis family. . Being spotted by the king, and by Duke Norford suprising tho it was, gave him an opening, how just t survive. His friends his contacts his 'sons' all gave him that support and gee, maybe I can makedsome money....oh power? sure bring it on Be head of the new church under the King, in a heartbeat. As time went on he remember the ones who teared down his master, and ways this could possible work to his advantage. And yes he did like his perks. I think it all played into his hands, to make his revenge happen in the end And remember this only took about 3 years.

    41AlisonY
    mar 30, 2021, 3:02 am

    >40 cindydavid4: I hadn't thought about the brevity of his ascent - excellent point.

    I still think so much of this harks back to the days of his youth when his father was so bad to him it forced him to make his own way in the world at such a young age, including fighting in wars just for the sake of the wage. That must surely have changed him and made him hungry for improving his life (with a streak of ruthlessness and guile).

    He always remembered those who had been kind to him and made a big difference to his life (such as the Dutch gentlemen), and I suspect this is why he's always felt so tender about Wolsey. And no doubt a large part of why he is so good to his household and those other 'sons' is precisely because he never had that, and he wants to show kindness and love that he never had growing up.

    I didn't get the impression that he was actively looking for revenge for Wolsey, but rather when he was in the position to try to help those potentially in the Anne firing line the pleas from those who had wronged Wolsey would fall on deaf ears.

    42dchaikin
    apr 5, 2021, 2:27 pm

    On page 261. I’m really engaged now, sensing TC more and his world and all he does that goes unspoken. His poker face hides a lot. I was entertained when he called “Call Me” actually “Call Me”.

    43sallypursell
    apr 5, 2021, 9:06 pm

    I just started BUTB two days ago, from having Real Life step in my way. I'm not really speeding through it, because, of course, I am reading several other books. I am finding it pretty easy reading, but I did for WH also.

    44rhian_of_oz
    apr 8, 2021, 9:15 am

    Part Two Chapter 1 p260

    After a brief unplanned hiatus I'm back to it and immediately absorbed with the story.

    I know I'm probably early on in the scheme/plan to get rid of Anne, but so far it seems to me that Cromwell is reacting rather than initiating. He sees which way the wind blows (with Henry more than any of the other interested parties) and is canny enough to pick the right side.

    45AlisonY
    apr 10, 2021, 2:51 pm

    >45 AlisonY: I think you're right. Certainly Mantel portrays Cromwell as someone in survival of the fittest mode, rather than scheming for the sake of it.

    46dchaikin
    Redigerat: apr 10, 2021, 3:15 pm

    On p 358

    What most interest me about these interviews is that the charged are roughly normal people. The contrast between them and Cromwell becomes a exposure of how far beyond normal he has gone. He doesn’t need to do all this (in the novel’s context). He could spare these men and still give Henry what he wants. He’s not just calculating and ruthless, he’s gone off script, taken it to another level. He’s become a monster.

    And the Weird thing, Wolsey wasn’t a good person. He was so false a religious leader. It’s not like Cromwell is avenging nobility. He’s avenging out of a blind loyalty.

    47dchaikin
    apr 11, 2021, 10:27 am

    Finished before I went to sleep last night. No thoughts yet, except that I think it works terrifically as a novel.

    48cindydavid4
    Redigerat: apr 11, 2021, 1:01 pm

    >46 dchaikin: He doesn’t need to do all this (in the novel’s context). He could spare these men and still give Henry what he wants. He’s not just calculating and ruthless, he’s gone off script, taken it to another level. He’s become a monster.

    I agree, he had no real reason to destroy those lives. By this point he was so wrapped up in his power, discovery of what he could do that yes its over the top. I remember reading this thinking, wait is this the same man I admired fo much in WH? Something has happened, someone clicked a switch and became someone very scary. Plus he's become a very good teacher, and he will soon find this all coming back to bite him

    "And the Weird thing, Wolsey wasn’t a good person. He was so false a religious leader. It’s not like Cromwell is avenging nobility. He’s avenging out of a blind loyaty"

    No Wolsey wasn't a good person, but he managed to save Cromwell, and befriended him the first person who really did and I think he actually was a father figure for him. So yes he is avenging out of blind loyalty, which at this point for him is avenging nobility.

    Having read the last book, really wanting to read a bio of him. Came across this From the link:

    Of all the books you could turn to, Diarmaid MacCulloch’s 2018 biography, Thomas Cromwell: A Life, is the place to start. The book got rave reviews, including from Hilary Mantel. (Indeed, they have both spoken admiringly of each other’s work and and have even done a double act interview, talking about Cromwell.)

    49dchaikin
    apr 11, 2021, 1:25 pm

    >48 cindydavid4: thanks for posting that blurb.

    So, after I posted that, Cromwell explained why he needed so many culprits. It de-emphasizes them individually, further criminalizes the queen, (and makes it all less personal). Still. He’s terrible.

    And what does it mean that no one can condemn this procedure. The convicted cannot defend themselves. So, certainly no one else can. That’s so surreal and deranged. A farce through and through, except for the beheadings, especially the three strokes on George. I’m hung up on that a little.

    50cindydavid4
    Redigerat: apr 11, 2021, 1:54 pm

    It means its a totalitarian state, which I think is what most monarchies were back in the day. What makes it worse is that it looks all just fine, here's a parliment, aren't we being clever, but its all just an object for Henry and Cromwell who both have quite a bit of blood on their hands. So no one can condemn the procedure, there is no place they can go, without finding themselves sent to the tower. The three parts of our govenment act as balancing each other out. You wonder where they got that idea because it didn't come from the monarchy.

    Oh and whats with him protecting Wyatt? Is it just his promis to his father? or someting more

    From the above link there is an interview with Diarmaid MacCulloch and Hilary Mantel. Its long, in two parts, but if you want to get a taste of it read here Just beware of spoilers, this interview took place after Mirros and the Light was published.

    51dchaikin
    apr 11, 2021, 1:45 pm

    >50 cindydavid4: I think for me this might be a nice audiobook

    52cindydavid4
    apr 11, 2021, 1:56 pm

    >50 cindydavid4: not big on those,I tend to get distracted, always depends on who the reader is but yes, it very well could be.

    53sallypursell
    Redigerat: apr 13, 2021, 12:10 pm

    I got another reserved book from the library, which I had to read in order to return. Even so, I sent two back I hadn't read in order to move on with this.

    So I assume I am behind all of you. I am in Part One, Chapter II, Crows. And I was struck by the passage on page 73 in which he remembers his wife only by her presence,
    a blur now in his mind, a whisk of skirts around a corner.

    It was a year later that his daughters died.
    In his house at Stepney, he keeps in a locked box their necklaces of pearl and coral, Anne's copy books with their Latin exercises. And in the storeroom where they keep their play costumes for Christmas, he still has the wings made of peacock feathers that Grace wore in a parish play. After the play she walked upstairs, still wearing her wings; frost glittered at the window. I am going to say my prayers, she said: walking away from him, furled in her feathers, fading into dusk.

    Speculation is baseless, but do you suppose that if Elizabeth, Anne, and Grace had lived he would not have become such a "monster", as CindyDavid would have it?

    54dchaikin
    apr 13, 2021, 1:11 pm

    >53 sallypursell: good question. i think he was good to those under him. Partially because of this and partially because of how I imagine him and partially on how much he kept his personal and professional life separate, and also partially because of the nature of these royal house power games, I‘m in the no camp. I think he’d still be ruthless.

    55AlisonY
    apr 13, 2021, 5:48 pm

    >53 sallypursell:, >54 dchaikin: I also tend to think he'd still have done what he did. I'm still on the fence about him being a ruthless monster. Well, the ruthless part perhaps, but I can't quite decide on the monster part. He'd got himself in it up to his neck by being part of Henry's fragile inner circle, and he knew it had to be Henry's way or it would be the chopping block for himself sooner rather than later.

    Could he have saved some of those men in the end? Undoubtedly, and no doubt there was some sweet revenge in there, but there was a convincing case to make sticky against Anne. Mind you, I'm questioning myself as I'm writing this. One person would have been easier to perhaps understand, and one has to question why he put so many in the frame.

    This is where Mantel's so clever. She had us rooting for him in Wolf Hall, so now I can't believe he's turned into a monster. Is it monster, or survival of the fittest?

    56rhian_of_oz
    apr 14, 2021, 7:07 am

    >53 sallypursell: I'm not up to the "monster" bit yet (though the game is afoot), but I had a fleeting thought similar to yours when I was reading this at lunchtime - would he Cromwell (:-D) have behaved differently if his wife had lived?

    Also I've just noticed that the women of his household are almost completely absent in this book.

    57cindydavid4
    apr 14, 2021, 5:50 pm

    >56 rhian_of_oz: yes; I loved Johane, and Mercy granted his two sisters passed away, want more of his nieces

    58sallypursell
    apr 14, 2021, 10:02 pm

    >55 AlisonY: I must say that I thought he was nearing monster-status at the end of Wolf Hall. I said so, but I was in the minority. I also thought he showed romantic interest in Jane Seymour (or was it Anne?) and you will notice that in Part I his son expresses that same impression. I think he has changed his mind, but he can hardly be interested once Henry is.

    59cindydavid4
    Redigerat: apr 14, 2021, 10:28 pm

    Oh he definitely had a romantic interest in her, which I suspect why he planned that little detour to wolf hall, not realizing the plans the king had

    re his monster stage - his treatment of harry percy, the on and off again vow of no marriage, yes marriage certainly showed his ability to get what he wanted with lots of twisting words, and caused the earl an early death, at at the end of the book you could see where things were heading I think. So I agree with you

    60dchaikin
    apr 17, 2021, 2:14 pm

    there are now 316 reviews of Bring Up the Bodies on LT, after I added my one.

    61lisapeet
    apr 18, 2021, 9:42 am

    Hahah I just looked up mine from 2012 and it just says "Hot damn, SO good. Mantel's really got a gift." I really need to reread this. But not this month... I'm booked solid, reading wise.

    62sallypursell
    apr 18, 2021, 5:42 pm

    I've reached Part Two. Henry knocked himself out jousting, and Anne miscarried again. Katherine has recently died. Everything is scary or sad right now.

    63dchaikin
    apr 18, 2021, 8:45 pm

    >62 sallypursell: that scene - Henry unconscious - i found it fascinating.

    64cindydavid4
    Redigerat: apr 18, 2021, 11:15 pm

    And Cromwells actions. I wonder if there is any chance this actially happened, tho she does have Henry say to Crum, you know this never happened', so probably not. Fascinating images in that scene.

    65dchaikin
    apr 18, 2021, 11:17 pm

    >64 cindydavid4: I think Henry getting knocked unconscious and even thought to have died is considered true...it rings a bell. I’ll have to look it up.

    66dchaikin
    Redigerat: apr 18, 2021, 11:49 pm

    >64 cindydavid4: there’s this study: https://qz.com/611668/henry-viiis-erratic-behavior-was-likely-caused-by-an-nfl-s...

    1st - wow. Need to rethink Henry. And what would Mantel make of this? Does she consider it in The Mirror and the Light?

    2nd - he was unconscious for two hours after a horse accident in 1536 - that’s what Mantel is covering in this book.

    67cindydavid4
    Redigerat: apr 18, 2021, 11:41 pm

    Thanks for that; reading the Mirror and Light there are several references to his wounds and injuries in regards to his mood. He sentenced Anne to death,and in the next moment is second guessing himself that he was wrong. Makes total sense to me.

    68rhian_of_oz
    apr 22, 2021, 9:54 am

    Part Two Chapter Two Page 393

    I've just finished the conversation between Cromwell and Norris in the Tower. I feel like this scene is the most honesty we have seen in Cromwell.

    Do I think he is a monster? He is certainly doing monstrous things. For me there are a couple of points in this scene that really speak to Cromwell's position.

    "The king must be rid of her...she must be pushed, and I must push her, who else...In a like case...Wosley could not gratify the king, and then...He was disgraced and driven to his death."

    "I only ask you to recall an entertainment...a play in which the late cardinal was set upon by demons...none of you behaved like Christians. You behaved like savages instead."

    "He needs guilty men. So has found men who are guilty. Though perhaps not guilty as charged."

    I have enough sympathetic feeling for Cromwell to see his actions as self-preservation, but I guess I hoped he wouldn't stoop so low to use lawyer tricks on men not up to his intellectual weight class. I also thought I might be more pleased at the downfall of Cromwell's enemies but instead it leaves a bad taste.

    The whole situation is disgusting, with the king being the most disgusting of all. No doubt he told himself lies often enough he started to believe them.

    Mantel's gift is making me care about people who died centuries ago, hoping somehow that the outcome might change.

    On a lighter note I had to laugh at Henry's gift to Jane - that still contained Anne's initial, beneath which you could see Katherine's. What a flog.

    69dchaikin
    apr 22, 2021, 11:16 am

    >68 rhian_of_oz: that conversation between Cromwell and Norris may be my favorite part of this book. Like you, I found it enlightening but also revealing about the true Cromwell - and not in a good way.

    70AlisonY
    apr 22, 2021, 1:40 pm

    >68 rhian_of_oz: I tend to agree that his actions were one of self-preservation than being a monster, but as we've said previously, Mantel leaves us to make up our own mind and I can see how others think he's monstrous as he still had scope of making choices within his decisions, if you know what I mean.

    71sallypursell
    apr 25, 2021, 2:30 pm

    I finished Bring Up the Bodies last night, and I will want a day or two to let it settle. I didn't like this one as much as Wolf Hall, but not because it isn't good. It is *very* good, but it was so loathsome so much of the time that I didn't enjoy being sunk in it.

    72cindydavid4
    apr 25, 2021, 5:40 pm

    >70 AlisonY: I think he is justifying his actions by saying this is what the king wants. But given how often doubts the actions after the fact, that might not be a legit defense. Besides, we all know that at Nurebourg the defense of just following orders was deemed invalid. You make your own choices, what you will accept. By this time tho Crumb is so powerful I am not sure he sees the kings needs as different from his own.

    Which brings up another question I asked in WF - the reformation was already starting without the king and crom, but would it have grown as much as it did without them? And did the king want this originally, or did Cromwell whispering in his ear make the king act.

    73cindydavid4
    apr 25, 2021, 5:43 pm

    >71 sallypursell: I agree that ist loathsome, but its very realistic. I was rather fascinated how he made this work. I also think, as i've said before, that I really sympathized with him in WH, but this one turns my sympathies around to horror. Now we move on to the third novel, what surprises will we see there?

    74dchaikin
    apr 25, 2021, 7:53 pm

    >72 cindydavid4: The English reformation seems like a very oddball thing. Was it really not so much a reformation driven by Catholic crimes as a by capricious royal will? Of so, is that a reformation or a usurpation? Anyway, interesting thought.

    75cindydavid4
    Redigerat: apr 25, 2021, 10:54 pm

    I don't know. Certainly it was happening in Germany through Luther, and Tyndale and others were pushing the Bible written in English vs Latin ; I don't know if that pushed Cromwell, or if it was all about a king wanting a divorce from his wife that the pope didn't agree with.....Think I need to learn more about the reformation Looks like in other contries their reformations were based on Luther, versus England that seemed to be more personal; tho as you see in Mantels books, the ideas of the reformation were already in place when Cromwell was just starting out. So did he whisper in the kings ear, hey he's away you can get a divorce and get all the money from the churches....all without the pope!

    76rhian_of_oz
    apr 26, 2021, 8:26 am

    >71 sallypursell: and >73 cindydavid4: I agree with you both. What makes it vile is it's realism, and it's Mantel's superb writing that makes it real.

    I think what makes this different from WH for me is I don't like any of the main players - there's no "goody" for me to cheer for, just varying degrees of dislike, disdain or disappointment.

    77cindydavid4
    Redigerat: apr 26, 2021, 10:21 pm

    I enjoyed watching Crumb's 'children' how invoved they were becoming in his work, and the interaction between them all. And I still enjoyed reading about Cromwell - for me he was one of those characters you love to hate if you know what I mean.

    78cindydavid4
    apr 26, 2021, 10:22 pm

    >76 rhian_of_oz: What makes it vile is it's realism, and it's Mantel's superb writing that makes it real.

    exactly!

    79AlisonY
    apr 28, 2021, 7:52 am

    >72 cindydavid4: I still can't quite decide if he's doing vile things and hiding behind 'it's what the king wants' or if a large part of it is fear that if he doesn't do it Henry will get someone else to, and he'll be added to the head chopping list. Self-preservation, if you will.

    I think it's a mix of both.

    80rhian_of_oz
    apr 29, 2021, 10:29 am

    I finished yesterday and I'm not sure how I feel. Not about the book - it is superb - but about the story (I know that sounds weird).

    Nearly two months ago I said "I am looking forward to what I hope is a comeuppance for Francis Weston" but it turns out what I am is mostly sad that six people were killed because Henry wanted a new wife.

    81cindydavid4
    apr 29, 2021, 9:41 pm

    So Saturdays the first; looking forward to delving into this one!

    82AlisonY
    apr 30, 2021, 3:32 am

    My copy just arrived yesterday, as the paperback's just been released in the UK. Wow - that's quite a chunky one! I hope she keeps us as gripped as in the first two.

    83rhian_of_oz
    apr 30, 2021, 9:02 am

    84cindydavid4
    apr 30, 2021, 11:51 am

    I wondered aboutt he size of the hardback, and didn't have any trouble! See you on the other thread...

    85sallypursell
    maj 2, 2021, 3:44 pm

    I finally wrote some response to Bring Up the Bodies. I will paste it here.


    57. Bring Up the Bodies by Hilary Mantel

    I have been trying to figure out what to say about this book, and largely failing. This is the part of Cromwell's story where Anne Boleyn falters and is deposed and arrested--for witchcraft, among other charges! It is supposed that she was treasonous by sharing her bodily favors with several other men of the court, and that she ensorcelled Henry to cause him to be so fixedly infatuated with her, to the detriment of the King and the country (There's that "the King's state is reflected in the health of the Land"; the Fisher King effect).

    Most of my fellow readers seem to feel that Cromwell has changed, something he shows in his quiet lust for the downfalls of several gentlemen. I saw the deterioration in the last third of Wolf Hall, and I think this is just his way of punishing the men who were most integral to the fall of Cromwell's beloved Cardinal Wolsey. I also think this is what he has had in mind for years. After all, for the Queen to fail, only one gentleman was necessary; this is gratuitous ill-treatment of several men who wronged Wolsey and thus incurred Cromwell's ire. It is cruelty, but Cromwell's worst sin, I believe is that of Pride. He, like Anne, has decided that he has the Good of England in his mind, but only if England agrees with his personal wishes. It is an infamous level of self-absorption and self-importance. Because he has a grudge against these gentlemen of the Court, they must die for the Good of England.

    Anne has the same besetting sin, and her fall presages a fall for Cromwell.

    Most of our reading group seemed to enjoy this book more than Wolf Hall. I, on the other hand, liked Wolf Hall much more, simply for the atmosphere of expansion--for Cromwell's rise to functionary plenipotentiary. I agree that Bring Up the Bodies was stunning in its execution. It was more brisk to read, and didn't require much of a reader's energy to get through. Still, the chilling atmosphere of the general slide into that chaotic "justice" just made it hard for me to enjoy. There was a creeping feeling of doom settling in for a not-so-nice stay.

    86cindydavid4
    maj 2, 2021, 11:15 pm

    Oh I definitly enjoyed WH more than BUTB; for me because of the sympathetic portrayal of Cromwell, so different from other depictions of him, that made me see other possibilties. I also loved the attention to details Mantel gives in the lives of her characters and in their interactions

    You are right, the ending rather presaged what was going to happen next, and it was certainly a chilling atmosphere. The feeling of doom is certainly there. BTW did you notice one of his 'boys' warning him frequently about ignoring his 'friends' who wanted Mary on the throne. That is going to come back to bite him in a big way, and some of that sympathy returns