Prep for the rebellious Biblical read

We're possibly walking the edge of Le Salon's tolerance, well, certainly well beyond the gasp response, but yes, we will start a biblical group read in January - specifically, midnight, January 1, right after your neighbors pyromania has begun to subside.

1. What you'll need.
The only book you'll need is Robert Alter's The Five Books of Moses: A Translation with Commentary (Just in case touchstones are wonky, here is a direct link: http://www.librarything.com/work/45428 )..."need" as in that's the book Urania1 and I will be using as our primary English translation. If you prefer NKJV or NIV any other random collection of letters that defines a version, you are more than welcome to use it.

2. How far will we go?
We should get through the first five books, and that may be all. I have this idea that I'll carry it through all the way to the New Testament, maybe even the Koran. But, no promises.

3. How religious will this be?
It's not intended to be religious at all. The purpose it literary. Atheists are welcome and may make up the majority of the group. (Full disclosure. I'm atheist and Jewish. My own motivation is a planned trip to Israel for my nephew's Bar Mitzvah, so there is some kind of vague, poorly defined religious aspect to this for me.)

4. So, what's the purposed of this thread?
The main reason for this post to to give anyone who wants to join a chance to pick up the books you need. I also had in mind using this thread to request/suggest additional reading ideas. There is a ton a biblical-related literature. But, really, what's worth checking out? I will post my own short list below.

These are the books I plan to look into:

1. The Rise and Fall of the Bible: The Unexpected History of an Accidental Book by Timothy Beal
- I've read and really enjoyed this. Beal's best essay is about the Bible as a popular icon, the book that every religious person owns, but few actually read, verse what's actually in the Bible. He does some light history and interpretation as well.

2. Good Book: The Bizarre, Hilarious, Disturbing, Marvelous, and Inspiring Things I Learned When I Read Every Single Word of the Bible by David Plotz
- This started as a Slate.com blog and than was expanded into a book. It's a chapter by chapter summary of the Old Testament from a lax Jewish perspective. I'm reading this now, nearly done. My first impression was that this was useful, if you want a summary, but not all that well done. But, as Plotz gets into the Samuel and the King histories, his commentary improves and I'm enjoying it now. Very light, but that's its value.

3. How to Read the Bible: A Guide to Scripture, Then and Now by James Kugel
- This comes recommended through LT, Beal and Plotz, so it seems like a good companion. It makes a decent doorstop. I will try reading this as I work through the bible. This is Old Testament only, by the way.

4. The Literary Guide to the Bible by Robert Alter
- Highly recommended in LT. I might read this, but later on.

5. Scribal Culture and the Making of the Hebrew Bible by Karel van der Toorn
- I plan to read this, maybe in January. No clue on it's actual value.

6. The Year of Living Biblically by A. J. Jacobs
- Just for fun. I don't think I'll read it, but thought I should mention it.

Reading Timothy Beal's book, I highlighted some references. Here they are:

1. Books and Readers in the Early Church: A history of Early Christian Texts by Harry Y. Gamble (Beal says “see especially”)
2. Early Biblical Interpretation: Two Studies of Exegetical Origin by James L. Kugel and Rowan A. Greer
3. Guardians of Letters: Literacy, Power, and the Transmitters of Early Christian Literature by Kim Haines-Eitzen (scribes)
4. Christianity and the Transformation of the Book: Origen, Eusebius, and the Library of Caesarea by Anthony Grafton and Megan Williams (how scholarly Xtian culture led to the development of libraries.)
5. The Book: The History of the Bible by Christopher De Hamel
6. Theology of the Old Testament: Testimony, Dispute, Advocacy by Walter Brueggemann (Beal considers Breuggemann a mentor, which may be a reason to consider this, or a reason to think it was over-praised)
7. Biblical Interpretation in Ancient Israel by Michael Fishbane (“highly influential work”)

I think I'll be sticking with Alter and the Bible itself, because my book-buying fund is a little depleted at current. But I will surely be there.

> 1 "We're possibly walking the edge of Le Salon's tolerance"... you do, but we respect the brave...

As long as we stay on the literary side of the interpretation of the Bible, I have no problems with it. If it gets religious, i can suggest some interesting groups more suited to that purpose...

We keep an eye on you DC : )

Thanks for putting in the ground work to start this off dan.

I like the idea of extending on through the new testament and Koran as well, at some time in 2012.

#5 Mac - point noted, but not expected to be an issue. The purpose of this read is to look at a work (or stitched collection of works) of literature.

Dan,

Be very, very careful.

Henri_Etta is so frightened after reading this thread!

We're keeping this reading "literary" folks. I highly recommend getting the Alter translation. His translation and commentary are good and slanted toward a literary rather than a theological interpretation. If you feel the need to rant, LT has many forums dedicated to religious ranting. If you rant here, you will be sent to the quiet corner.

I think zenomax's idea is an excellent one, which we should take into consideration as we read.

As it is nearly impossible to understand Western literature without some understanding of the Bible (and Homer, Hesiod, Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Virgil and Ovid), reading the Bible from a purely literary standpoint seems a highly valuable exercise to me. I'm continually amazed and appalled at how Biblical references and allusion go completely over the heads of my so-called Christian students.

Even over the head of Bildad the Shoeheight? Say it ain't so.

I just bought The Book of J, the translation by David Rosenberg of the first three books of the Pentateuch with a commentary by Harold Bloom (I know, I know) arguing that large chunks of each were written by the same person (apparently a mainstream argument in Biblical criticism, according to the back cover--do I call it 'criticism,' or Biblical 'scholarship'? I feel comfortable with the former--not sure if everyone does?) who was a woman and incidentally a literary genius. I feel a little uneasy reading anything in which Bloom talks about 'genius,' but this does look interesting.

>11 janeajones: jane,

Yes. For a number of texts that I taught, I felt like I spent a lot of time as a Sunday school teacher. My students were fascinated that I knew the Bible so well yet was an atheist.

from David Plotz's chapter "Should You Read the Bible?:

After thirty-nine books, 929 chapters, more than 600,000 words, and just over a year, I've finally finished reading the Bible—or at least the Hebrew Bible. {side note - I'm hoping to finish before August 1-ish}

...

A century ago, most well-educated Americans knew the Bible deeply. Today, biblical illiteracy is nearly universal among nonreligious people*

...

Everyone should read it—all of it! In fact, the less you believe, the more you should read.

...

You can't get through a chapter of the Bible, even in the most obscure book, without encountering a phrase, a name, a character, or an idea that has come down to use from 3,000 years ago. The Bible is the first source of so much...

...

While reading the Bible, I often felt as though I was understanding my own world for the very first time. It was humbling. In reading, I learned that I didn't know the true nature of God's conflict the Job, which is the ur-text of all subsequent discussions of obedience and faith. I was ignorant of the story of Ruth. I was unaware of the radical theology of Ecclesiastes, the source of so many of our ideas about the good life. I didn't who Jezebel was, or why we loathe her, or why she is the painted lady, or even that she married Ahab. (This also means I managed to spend most of a college semester studying Moby Dick without knowing who the original Ahab was.) {note - a Moby Dick Tie-in!} I was unfamiliar with the second half of Jonah, ignorant of Ezekiel's valley of dry bones, unacquainted with the whore of Babylon. I don't want to sound like a theocratic crank, but I'm actually shocked that students aren't compelled to read huge chunks of the Bible in high school and college, the way they must read Shakespeare or the Constitution or Mark Twain. How else can they become literate in their own world?

*According to Timothy Beal, it's not much better among religious people, in general. His research, not my opinion.

That won't be the last Moby Dick tie-in! Should we be setting the same rules for MD re religiosity?

Call me Ishmael. Not that that's my name.

Robert

I once read an article that advocated the teaching of the OT, NT and the Koran each of the three years of HS -- one year should be taught by fundamentalists, one by atheists and one by believers who taught the texts symbolically -- I thought it was an intriguing idea.

#16 Sam - A good question. This is what I was thinking as I erased my first several answers to Mac's post...there is a religious component to everything we read. Careful what you censor. At the same time, I agree with Mac's concerns. We want to keep in clean here, please no pro&con rants and raves and foaming at the mouth.

I expect I'll be peeking and lurking on your discussion threads. I have no fear that Le Salon will turn into a) a church, b) an arena in which the lions are encouraged to sport with the Christians (or anybody else), or c) I don't have a c, but the rhythm's good.

At my college, most students took a semester course called "The Bible as Literature." Though Georgetown is Catholic, they used the KJV for the course, since it is so ubiquitous in English lit. I did not take the course, actually. They required two theology courses and only one was dictated by them, "The Problem of God" (great course!) so for the second theology requirement I took Intro to Hinduism.

I believe the concept of "the bible as literature" as an obvious tie-in to liberal arts Western civ type coursework is a great idea, even though I didn't take advantage of the course.

ETA: I might lurk on this thread because I am sure it will be interesting!

Hi All,

I just found this group, and this thread. I joined the group, and I might try to follow along with the thread, though book clubs or group readings are not usually my kind of thing.

But I've been trying to read the Bible for years (I have no religious education and I'm an atheist), and failed repeatedly, so maybe this could help me to go a bit further than Genesis (which I don't even think I finished). So, I may just lurk or I may post, and I will certainly buy the recommended book, if I can find it in e-book form.

I got the book! The blurbs on the back are well chosen (Robert Fagles, Seamus Heaney.) Many chapters still appear to begin with "and."

And what's wrong with that?

LOL, what book are we reading together ? Moses 5 ?

Martin - Alter addresses that in the intro.

Mac - see the OP. We will get through at least Moses. Not sure after that.

FlorenceArt - welcome. I think there's a Kindle version of Alter (and other ebook forms). I have the Paperback because there are lot of notes and I'm never sure how that will work in the electronic forms...but it's a darn heavy book.

I would like to read this, but January is probably not a good time for me to do so. I will follow along with your discussion and mark the thread for future reference. I've read some of the Five Books (in Jewish versions) over the years, but never all the way through from beginning to end, and I would like to. Incidentally, I really enjoyed Thomas Mann's Joseph and His Brothers.

Wake me up when the begats are over...

>1 dchaikin: We're possibly walking the edge of Le Salon's tolerance, well, certainly well beyond the gasp response, but yes, we will start a biblical group read in January

I'm interested, I think, but before I sign on, please help me with a little orientation and acculturation. I'm new to LT and don't have the knowledge that this remark presumes. It can be hard for the uninitiated to tell the difference between literal statements and tongue-in-cheek comments. Even if one suspects irony or facetiousness, that doesn't necessarily mean a correct reading of the subtext.

Could you please tell me:

(a) What exactly is a group read--what does it imply? Are there ongoing discussions, checkpoints, milestones, something else?

(b) Why would such a thing be walking the edge of Le Salon's tolerance? Where is the edge of Le Salon's tolerance? Is this too close to religion for a bunch of heathens or too heathen for a bunch of religionists or something else? I am not quite at ease with the idea that tolerance has an edge in this neighborhood. I don't know yet if I'm in the right place or not.

Many thanks for explaining.

Excellent questions, Meredy. I'll throw my two cents at (a).

You pretty much answered your own question in regards to group reads, looks like to me. Here's an excellent example of one of our group reads, part 1, The Brothers Karamazov.

The best ones are usually "led" by somebody, but really, whether any one person takes charge of the thread or not, it's mostly an eclectic collection of interested readers from a multitude of backgrounds coming together with their perspectives and takes to the thread to discuss whichever book is up for discussion at the time. Some group reads dig far deeper than others, and last the entire book like the one linked above (part one of twelve threads devoted to the book) and the one Captain Mac just finished on The Magic Mountain (multiple threads too), while some, occasionally, fizzle out for a variety of reasons.

Meredy, Not sure I can give a good answer. Religion can be a hot issue on LT and that's OK* and there are other places for it, but the problem is that this isn't the place. Talking about the Bible is uncomfortably close to religion. But...this isn't a religious read, this is about the literature...that's why we're reading Alter's translation, as his emphasis is literary.

Whatever the bible may or may not mean to someone for or against any religion, it underlies Western expression (and the Near East presumably, to some extent), it's a foundational text in the cultural sense.

*Well, that's arguable sometimes

Martin

"But, semantics aside, the general practice of modern English translators of supressing the "and" when it is attached to a verb has the effect of changing the tempo, rhythm, and construction of events in biblical narrative"

Alter, page xxvi...he goes on for about four pages about these ands.

And I do so love those "ands." And thank the whatever for Alter's analysis of all those "ands."

>30 absurdeist:, 31

Ok. Thanks very much, Henri_Etta_Freeque and dchaikin.

I happen to feel strongly that knowledge of the Bible is indispensable to a well-rounded education and essential to a reading of Western literature. And I think there's as much truth to be found in it as there is in any literature in the wisdom tradition, in its fables and proverbs and its stories of human triumphs and failings. I also regard the KJV as the pinnacle of achievement of the English language.

In terms of personal belief, that's not where I look for my sources. And I avoid religious discussions because they are, on the whole, fruitless and full of animosity. Religion is a hot issue everywhere, even among those who purportedly share the same faith--or lack of it. I have seen avowed atheists claw at each other's throats because one says an atheist doesn't believe in any god and another says an atheist does believe there is no god, and each claims to possess the true definition of atheism. It's enough to make you weep.

In the spirit of a literary discussion as you've described it, I think I could do a group read.

>32 dchaikin: Four pages?! I'm in the right place, at least. And definitely no complaints about those "ands". I was reassured, if anything.

I find on my shelves The Bible: Designed to be Read as Living Literature, King James Version by Ernest Sutherland Bates, would this be useful to me in this reading? I don't have the Altar book

Leland Rykens essay on the Bible as literature helped me focus on the apparent intent of this read ... though I find it difficult to separate literary style from the effect words often have on people's lives. There is so much history and hidden meaning behind Biblical passages. Biblical passages often seem simple and direct, but the events which prompted them are to me much more interesting than any anonymous scribe or translator's choice of words.

http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001870.cfm

#31 "...that's why we're reading Alter's translation, as his emphasis is literary"

I lied here. The reason we're reading Alter is because Mary said we should, well she suggested it.

MAJic - I will only be reading the Alter version for these first five books, but that is mainly because I'm afraid if I try to read several versions I'll get overwhelmed. It would be nice to have someone bring up their impressions from the KJV.

--- this was looking like a four person tiny rebellious, off the schedule, group read. Now it seems like it might get a bit bigger. ??? Should be interesting either way.

What's the "rebellious" part?

"...walking the edge of Le Salon's tolerance..."

He's still alive, they hit him with five shots and he's still alive!

>12 Porius: lqarl!

> 18 Now is the time.

meredy, rebellious seems to mean simply aside from the regularly scheduled group reads. As for your questions about tolerance, in not yet a year's experience, this group has been the best I've ever been any part of regarding tolerance--intolerance is not tolerated. As for the religious, I hope the warnings are more or less in the vein of keeping the main focus literary. I don't think you can actually have this discussion without plenty of religious expression.

>26 dchaikin: Thanks for the welcome! I did buy the e-book version, and the notes are not linked, which is outrageous, but I still prefer it to a paper version - I think.

Ah. Thanks for the additional explanation, RickHarsch. This looks like the key: "intolerance is not tolerated." I'm in the right place.

In the spirit of rebellion, I may pop in every now and then and get really devout on you all.

Me too!

I read it several years back. That Old part was a bit like Naked Lunch.

Second part (which you all will not be reading) was a bit more serene. Very Californian.

Em, just checking... In the dead tree edition of the Alter translation, Genesis chapter 1, are notes 28 to 31 there? Because they're missing from the e-book...

47> Not sure I would call the New Testament serene (for what my opinion is worth, that is, very little). Not even the Gospels, and I won't even mention the Apocalypse, which I haven't read, fun though it must be.

I don't think there are any notes for 28-31. My dead tree version doesn't have any.

>48 FlorenceArt:

Oh yeah, I somehow forgot about the parts dealing with torture, zombies and the apocalypse.

>50 Sandydog1: How could you forget torture, zombies, and the apocalypse, not to mention that shameless hussy the Whore of Babylon?!!! Oozing with decadence and excitement. What horrors has John of Patmos for us at the next turn of the page?

... and then there was that OT Book that read like letters to Penthouse.

>49 bokai:: thanks for checking, I feel better now :-/

>51 urania1:: here's a portrait of the Whore of Babylon. Don't click if you're under 18!
http://www.thebricktestament.com/revelation/god_tortures_a_whore/rv17_05.html

I think the thebricktestament may be required reading along with Alter.

The Brick Testament also comes in book form, but the website is great. And then there's The Book of Genesis Illustrated by R. Crumb.

I got Crumb's Genesis as a present last Christmas (I think), but it only turned out to be another one of my failed attempts at reading the Bible. I'm not a fan of Crumb's graphic style, and I didn't feel it brought anything to the story. I like the Brick testament better. :-P

I'm with you, FlorenceArt. Crumb leaves me feeling grimy and sad always. And like there's an old bandaid in my sandwich.

He did great illustrations for The Monkey Wrench Gang but I think Genesis defeated him, particularly all the begats.

We need more illustrations. Creation:

>59 A_musing: Ohhhhhhh wow.

Oh I love Chagall!

I'm now, coincidentally, a proud owner of The Brick Testament. My wife got me a copy as a Hanukkah present. I'm sure it will be a terrific supplement to Alter and beyond.

By the way, if anyone wants to pursue Alter beyond the first five books, here is what's available

The David Story covers 1 & 2 Samuel
The Book of Psalms: A Translation with Commentary
The Wisdom Books: Job, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes

Here's what he hasn't covered (yet?):
Joshua
Judges
1 & 2 Kings
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Minor Prophets
Song of Songs
Ruth
Lamentations
Esther
Daniel
Ezra-Nehemiah
1 & 2 Chronicles
The New Testament
Any Apocrypha

The Book of Books - What Literature Owes to the Bible, from yesterday in the NYTimes Sunday Book Review : http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/25/books/review/the-book-of-books-what-literature...

I'm planning to join this and have ordered the book. Will there be a new thread for an ongoing discussion beginning January 1? and a link from this one?

This is just the prep thread. We'll use a different thread to start reading, and I will put a link here.

Well, I've procured the book and may try to tag along a bit.

I will also try to read along, perhaps without the book. I had posted this somewhere else, but may be of interest to some

http://www.artbible.info/

Peter - terrific link, I'll keep that site in mind (it might even be better than The Brick Testment).

Sam, great to have you along. A nice small supplement to MD. : )

Perhaps we can get an official Salon hairshirt - do they print hairshirts at places like cafe press?

Or try Etsy maybe?

You know, my dogs shed like crazy...I've always wondered what we could make out of all that hair.

continued here: http://www.librarything.com/topic/129966

I'm looking for non-religious, or at least scholarly-ish, notes on Joshua, Judges, 1 & 2 Kings. Any suggestions?

the Bible is a library of books from diverse times and places rather than a single, unified book; biblical narratives contain complex themes and realistic characters and are not "pious parables" about saintly persons; the Bible is a literarily sophisticated narrative not for children; the Bible is an account of the odyssey of a people rather than a book of theology; and finally, the Bible was written by many human contributors with diverse perspectives and viewpoints.

From the Yale online course here. Italics are mine. Just adding another source of info here.

While I'm here, note Robert Alter's Ancient Israel: The Former Prophets: Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings: A Translation with Commentary will be releases April 1.

Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Israel-Prophets-Translation-Commentary/dp/03930826...

Three colons? Is that even legal?

The title comes from amazon, so who knows. I added to book to my wishlist...which, as far as I can tell, is its first LT entry. So, now there is a touchstone.

Thanks A_musing for the info on this book.

And now it's on my wishlist too, which gives it a popularity ranking of 2,278,733.

My copy of Ancient Israel just arrived - a couple weeks early.

Nice! Can't wait to hear what you think.

I read The Song of Deborah last night and was mixed on it...He uses the word "dripped" twice for when something more like "pour down" seems more appropriate. "The clouds dripped rain" just seems so goofy as to undermine any thoughts of poetry, IMO. Also he uses "rattled" at the end when the text is supposed to be referencing the sound of horses galloping (which he notes!). But, on the other hand his notes left much to think about.

Note sure when I will read more of this...since I'm supposed to be moving on ahead passed all of what is included here.

Not doing much Bible reading right now. Too tired for "serious" stuff.

I got a notice mine is on the way, which may be a signal I need to read me some more Bible.

OK, I got confused by the wrong touchstone but I finally figured out you guys are talking about Alter's translation. Must try to find out if it's available as ePub.

Sorry, I didn't notice. Touchstone is fixed in #80 now, or here: Ancient Israel

No ePub ebook version in view for the moment. I'll wait until April but if there is no alternative I can buy the Kindle version from Amazon.

I just got mine.

Ugh, too much on plate. I will join you dudes, or at least follow in your footsteps and learn from your wisdom, in the fullness of time.

Eliot Weinberger on Robert Alter's Psalms: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v30/n02/eliot-weinberger/praise-yah

90> He doesn't seem to like the translation much. The examples that he gives are indeed troubling. I haven't read the article to the end yet.

90> I also haven't had time to read the article in full but certainly intend to to find time to do so. Must admit I read Alter's book a few months ago and found myself "turning off" a few times but suspect that would have been the case reading any translation from Psalm 1 to 150. Just a couple of points: Weinberger says in para 2 (I got that far) "The 1611 King James Authorised Version of the Book of Psalms – and of course of the entire Bible – is so deep in the English language that we no longer know when we are repeating its phrases." Many older members of the Church of England will likely be much more familiar with the psalms in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer. Surprisingly althoughthe KJV was well-established by then, the BCP does not use the psalms from KJV but earlier translations. Off the cuff I think they probably owe more to Coverdale than any other single translator. Also further down the article mentions Alter's translation of words such as "salvation" (Haven't checked but I think Alter often uses "rescue"). Alter seems a little uncomfortable himself about this but as he says many modern Christian readers will read into "salvation" a meaning very far from that of the biblical writers. He says that at that time there was no concept of salvation in the sense in which many of us might think. Although to my ears it jarred a little I am grateful to Alter for making me aware of this. Now to find time and read Weinberger's article properly.

dcozy - Thanks for post that. I find myself nodding with Weinberger that (1) Alter's translations are awkward, but (2) when combined with his notes, he gives the reader a lot to think about. But (3) he doesn't cite the translation history and he doesn't highlight the famous lines he has changed (like Weinberger does and makes fascinating...but Weinberger only has to write one essay). Also, Weinberger makes the Jerusalem Bible sound appealing.

But, goodness, what to do? How many versions to read at once? I'm thinking specifically of Psalms.

I had the same reaction about the Jerusalem Bible.

The remark about Yahweh's name is also interesting. It is strange, now that I think of it, since Alter prides himself on staying as close to the original as possible, that he didn't apply this policy to Yahweh's name. Somehow reading a translation with this name instead of the LORD makes a completely different impression.

So true, Flo. It's a Jewish bias, instead of an interpreter decision, IMO. In my experience, Jews cringe at the sound Yahweh and argue in defense that we don't really know what the sound actually was (which is true). Also, since we don't pronounce it now, it's possible the name was not pronounced during the main writing and editing periods (although must have been pronounced at some point). So, those writers could have had another sound in mind. Anyway, using "the LORD" is very very awkward in English.

But this Jewish bias has been, to some extent, transferred to the Christian culture I think. My (protestant) Segond Bible also translates YHWH as "l'Eternel".