recommendations for fantasy books without magic

I'm looking for some fantasy books that are set in mythical lands in medieval/classical times that do not involve magic or races that don't exist. I know there are a lot of alternative history books that qualify but I'd prefer something that isn't alternative history. Shardik by Richard Adams is a good example of what I'm looking for. I know this is a tough one but does anyone have any suggestions?

Magic is usually the defining term to fantasy. So how do you define fantasy? I haven't read anything by Richard Adams. Do you mean where magic isn't used as a major plot devise and tool by the characters?

If it doesn't have magic and it isn't alternative history, then what exactly are you looking for? I'm confused as well.

How about Tailchaser's Song? I don't know if it has magic, but it is about a society of cats.

People define fantasy differently but in the broadest sense it refers to a story that could never take place in the real world. If a story takes place in a mythical country then it can be classified as fantasy because that country doesn't exist. Lost Horizon is considered a fantasy by many people and I've even heard some people refer to Clan of the Cave Bear as fantasy although I personally wouldn't classify it that way. The Golden Compass is a fantasy in which most of the characters don't use magic although the rules to their world are very different. Shardik takes place in a strange land but the characters do not have magical powers.
Readafew's comment "Do you mean where magic isn't used as a major plot devise and tool by the characters" is basically what I had in mind. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Completely magic-free, really all I can think of is the aforementioned Tailchaser's Song, which is rather similiar to Watership Down, but you already mentioned Richard Adams.

There is no magic in His Majesty's Dragon, but obviously, there are dragons, so that would break the no-races-that-don't-exist rule, unless by that you strictly meant the vampires, werewolves, fairies, et cetera that typically populate urban fantasy, and being set in the Napoleonic Wars would make it alternative history.

I wouldn't consider magic to be a *major* plot device in George R. R. Martin's work (touchstones don't seem to like him), although a few viewpoint characters in the Song of Ice and Fire series, which has a Medieval-esque setting, have encountered it so far. When I heard him promoting Feast of Crows, he compared magic to anchovies on pizza: he likes a little of it mixed in with a lot of other stuff, but he doesn't like a lot of it by itself.

Hmm. This is an interesting request and it made me really think. Browsing through my memory, I can only think of two books I've read that could possibly fit your request. One is Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel's Dart (the first book in a series), which has some "magic", but I would classify it more as mysticism as it is connected to the religion in the series and is not a major part of the story at all. The other book that pops into mind is William Goldman's The Princess Bride, which takes place in a fairy tale world but has no real magic that I can remember.

And I second the recommendation for George R.R Martin (augh, touchstone not working for him, of course). A bit of magic there but compared to hundreds of pages without it, it's fairly magic-light.

#7 - Except for Miracle Max...8^}

Oh right. I forgot about Miracle Max!

Ah, well, that's why they call it a miracle. *grins*. It's out of the ordinary.

Sadielady, you might want to take a look at Guy Kay. His The Lions of al_Rassan is set in Spain while the Catholics, Muslims, and Jews are there just before the reconquista, and Sailing to Sarantium and Lord of Emperors are set in Byzantium during the empire.

Yeah, reviving a dead man. That's not magic.

And there was a brimfire cloak or something.

I would second the recommendation for George R. R. Martin - there's bits of magic and dragons, but on the whole it's almost exclusively on the "sword" side of "sword and sorcery."

Would also second Guy Gavriel Kay - both The Lions of Al-Rassan and A Song for Arbonne are magic-free, and excellently written.

Lois McMaster Bujold's The Curse of Chalion is more religious mysticism than magic per se, but it might be too close for your taste.

There's plenty of Arthurian legend retellings that don't involve magic, or does this fall under "alternative history"?

Many Tamora Pierce books (particularly the Song of the Lioness and Protector of the Small quartets) feature magic incidentally, but it's not the focus of the plot at all. Some non-existent creatures, though.

Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint and The Privilege of the Sword, maybe -- I can't remember any magic in those. Also, if you're willing to allow communication with the gods, then The Thief and the two that follow it by Megan Whalen Turner might fit your requirements.

The Paladin excellant fantasy from a more SF writer. I'm pretty sure it's just humans and swords.

IIRC Duncan writes a fair bit of fantasy that is just sword based, but I've only read one or two and they were a long time ago. Seemed pretty good also.

I'm curious why do want such things? it is a very restricted part of the genre.

I've read all kinds of fantasy such as Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Mists of Avalon, Eragon, and many young adult and children's fantasy books but those are very easy to find. I just really liked Shardik but that type of fantasy is harder to find so I thought I'd ask for help. It's not the only kind I read though. Thanks so much for your suggestions.

There isn't much magic, as far as I recall, in Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun, arguably one of the masterworks of modern fantasy. Been a long time since I read it, though. I should reread it sometime in the not too distant future.

I would also second the recommendation for George R.R. Martin's A Song Of Ice And Fire, beginning with A Game Of Thrones, partly because it is relatively light on magic, and partly because, well, I'd recommend it to anyone.

#16, interesting, I didn't think of New Sun because I think of it as science fiction rather than fantasy. There's nothing in it that doesn't have a scientific explanation, assuming you consider hypnotism scientific. Wolfe certainly uses many fantasy tropes, and parts of the book have a fantasy feel to them. He blurs the lines between genres, so specualtive fiction might be the best term. I definitely agree that it's a masterwork, possibly the greatest literary spec fic ever.

Hmmm... difficult one, that. I'd second the recommendations for The Curse of Chalion and The Thief.

The chronicles of Morgaine by C J Cherryh, and The Steerswoman's Road by Rosemary Kirstein get around the magic ban by treading a fine line between fantasy and science fiction.

The lens of the world by R.A. Macavoy is set in a world approaching an era of Enlightenment and the 'magic' is often ambiguous.

Finally I can't help recommending Fly by Night by Frances Hardinge, even though it's set in the Eighteenth Century rather than in Medieval times. The only magic it contains is that of the printed word.

Have you also read Maia - its kind of a sequel to Shardik I think, set in the same world.

Ditto the recommendation for Lions of Al-Rassan - Song for Arbonne has the tiniest bit of magic in it, but its far more about the story

Its a good question tho, fantasy with no magic (thinks)

Moon Called Blood Bound Iron Kissed are all urban fantasy with werewolves and shapeshifters and vampires but very little magic in them.

Bitten by Kelley Armstrong is also an urban werewolf fantasy, again with very little magic, tho its the beginning of a Women of the Otherworld series and there is lots of magic in the later books.

Temeraire or His Majestys Dragon (same book diff titles due to diff countries) is about dragons but there is no magic in them at all, completely down to earth in fact.

Carrie Vaughns Kitty series Kitty and the Midnight Hour is the first, again urban werewolves and vampires and shapechangers with no magic

Im sensing a theme here :)

I would also recommend GRRM`s Song of Ice and Fire Series. He`s an amazing writer, the best I`ve encountered in the fantasy series. As well, he`s light on the magic. While it does play a part in the world, the main focus is on the politics and strategy of the various characters.

Harald, by David D. Friedman has got a historical-ish setting, but it's an imaginary land, not based on actual history.
There is no magic, and no fantasy races/creatures.

If memory serves Devlin's Honor and Devlin's Luck don't have any magic nor mythical beings. They are also quite good.

Islandia by Austin Tappan Wright doesn't have a drop of magic in it.

You might like The Seeing Stone by Kevin Crossley-Holland. It's quasi-Arthurian, about a young boy named Arthur growing up during the time of the Crusades who receives an obsidian rock in which he can see the stories of King Arthur. There are hints that Merlin is still alive and their neighbor, but other than being able to see the Arthurian stories (which reflect on Arthur's own story), there's no magic.

A Brother's Price by Wen Spencer has no magic. It is set in a world where women outnumber men by 1:50, and desribes the society that is build around the mechanisms that cope with it. Set in an early industrial world; steamboats, no magic.
Very wellwritten. Not in the league of The Left Hand of Darkness, but not a political statement like Daughters of Egalia. Mostly a romance under unusual circumstances.

The Wind in the Willows
Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of Nimh
Charlotte's Web - maybe?
Watership Down although I hate to recommend it....

But aside from the talking animals, no magic in any of those that I recall.

Though it's set in the present time, Lisa Goldstein's novel, Tourists would qualify, i think Cathrynne Valente's very baroque and complex reworking of the 1001 Arabian Nights, The Orphan's Tales contains many, many interwoven short stories, some of which do use "magic" but many of which do not. Peter Hoeg's most recent book The quiet Girl is set in contemporary Denmark - the protagonist has a "superheroish" sense of hearing (as opposed to snow) but..given that..it's not magic driven. John Crowley? An odd choice, that i've thought about often recently, is Ted Chiang's Stories of your life and Others which is usually thought of as sci-fi. BUT...a story about building a tower to the heavens in ancient Babylonia? A story where angels randomly come down and ... basically mess lives up? VERY well written.

Sympathy for the Devil and some of the others by Holly Lisle might also qualify. No "magic" just angels & devils.... And if I'm remembering correctly, I think Bring Me the Head of Prince Charming by Roger Zelazny is along the same vane.

I'll also put in a vote for the George RR Martin series. A few ice demons, a few dragons, a rogue priest or two...but really, given the length of the books, not much magic at all!

I also do not consider Gene Wolfe'sThe Book of the New Sun to be fantasy, but sci-fi. But it is definitely a genre-blend, so I can see why it might be considered fantasy to some.

I'd also suggest "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman. Other than the fact that several of the main characters are, well, gods, there isn't much magic, really. The gods are mostly close to powerless due to lack of belief, and are scheming to recover their power, etc.

And you might check out Tanith Lee's Secret Books of Venus series. Very alternate-world, quite lush and rich language...some magical elements, but not too heavy in that area.

Just going to chime in and say I really think Guy Kay is exactly what it sounds like you're looking for. To clarify from an earlier post, his books don't actually take place in mediaeval France or the Byzantine Empire, but rather in worlds "inspired" by these settings, so they are totally fantasy and not in any way alternate history.

A Song for Arbonne takes place in a world inspired by France during the Albigensian crusade. He also has several books that take place in at various points in the history of a single, unnamed world. In order of publication: The Lions of Al-Rassan (Spain at the time of El Cid), the Sarantine Mosaic of Sailing to Sarantium and Lord of Emperors (Byzantium at the time of Justinian), and Last Light of the Sun (the British Isles at the time of Alfred the Great). All of them have really minor instances of magic, but nothing that intrudes upon the story.

Also going to echo the recommendation of Swordspoint, The Fall of the Kings and The Privilege of the Sword by Ellen Kushner. They take place in the same city over the course of a century but can be read in any order. No magic whatsoever that I recall, except for a brief religious rite in The Fall of the Kings.

Lion of Senet by Jennifer Fallon - no magic or non-humans and very well written.

A third vote for Ellen Kushner's books. I've just finished Swordspoint on a transatlantic flight, and it mightily distracted me from the immense discomforts of the trip!

Hmm...Inkheart maybe if you get beyond the one conceit that you can read characters in and out of books. Other than that it's much more of a YA adventure/coming of age story (with a book obsessed character or two thrown in). The follow-up Inkspell involves more magic.

inda by sherwood smith doesn't have much magic. there are references to spells, but it is in passing and magic isn't actually described. that changes somewhat in the next book, the fox, but not much.

as near as i can recall, the sword dancer series by Jennifer Roberson doesn't involve magic. it is a desert world were the characters dance with swords - ie. duel - for a living.

Nthing the recommendations of Martin and Kay.

You might consider looking at Lian Hearn's Across the Nightingale Floor and the follow-ups. It's set in a world heavily inspired by feudal Japan and I haven't seen the recommendation pop up yet. (Granted, it's been ages since I read them so I can't give you much information beyond that.)

The Vintner's Luck by Elizabeth Knox features a fallen angel, though I suppose beyond that it's more alternate history than anything...

The Butterfly Lion is something I'd sooner consider magical realism for its ending and is set in this world, but... I've seen Inkheart mentioned as well, so...

Clockwork Heart is more steampunk, I think, and is part detective-part romance. Ish. *fails at genre categorisation* It features fictional technology, but as far as I know it doesn't feature fictional races. (Yep. I trust my memory this much.)

The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch maybe? That's set in a fantasy world and didn't have too much magic in it. One mage, maybe two, all in all and none the focus. I still haven't got around to reading its sequel, but it sounds like that might have more magic featured in it, as a warning.

Hope there's something in that list that sounds interesting! ^-^

I was just reading a review and thought of this thread so thought I would post. Don't know if you are still interested Sadielady but if you are... Check out this review of Jennifer Fallon's Second Sons series posted by 'Dragons, Heroes and Wizards':

...This is not your typical sword and sorcery or high fantasy subgenre. This series is more along the lines of science fantasy. There is no magic, very little focus on the military elements and not much of a focus on romance either. (but there is some) What this is is a fascinating look into political intrigue, religious corruption and the indomitable will of people to survive even in the most harsh conditions. It is also a character driven story and you'll find the characters to be very well fleshed out and every bit as unique as the world they live in. There are people who are easy to love, some who are easy to hate and others that are almost impossible to figure out at all. In true Jennifer Fallon style the *evil* characters have understandable motives and the *good* characters are less then perfect. There are layers upon layers of plot going on here and one thing is for sure, her writing is never boring. The pace is fast, the world building consistent and the characterization is superb. If you enjoy a real page turner that is very very hard to put down, this series fits the bill, hands down...

PS: I've read this series and enjoyed it immensely.
The books are: Lion of Senet, Eye of the Labyrinth, & Lord of the Shadows.

An oldie but a goodie is Chrysalids by John Wyndham

It's been a while since I've read them, but I don't recall much magic in Mary Stewart's Merlin series: The Crystal Cave, The Hollow Hills, The Last Enchantment, and (more of a sequel to the series, than in the series proper) The Wicked Day.

Prophecy, yes. Bolts of lightning from staves, no.

Song of the beast pretty good. It's got dragons in it but no magic.

Have you tried Elizabeth Vaughan and the Warprize, Warsworn and Warlord series? These have no magic and although they are peoples we don't know they are believable people who live in medieval times with conquering warlords and basic medical knowledge - they were really great books

So I notice the subject line, and I think "Hey, cool, I've written one of those!"...

Only to look at the thread and discover that a) it's five years old, and b) it was revived by someone saying "Hey, I've written one of those!", and getting flagged for it.

...I'm guessing that telling y'all about my fantasy without magic story would be a bad idea at this point?

On the other hand, when glancing over the list of books, I thought of one we missed back in 2008.
The Westmark Trilogy by Lloyd Alexander.

@43: The difference, I think, is that the book the previous poster is promoting is the only book he has catalogued. You, on the other hand, appear to be an active LT user, so I'd think your story would be fair game to share.

I too saw this thread and got more than a little interested (especially considering Shardik is my favorite book) but was disappointed to see that the only post more recent than 5 years old was spam.

For myself, I might recommend a couple of Orson Scott Card's early sci-fi novels that read like fantasy: Wyrms and Treason.

I think this was mentioned already early on in the thread, but so far, whenever anyone mentions a book without magic, it seems to me that there is some magic or 'supernaturalism' in it. I know the OP said 'no magic', 'no non-existent races' and 'no alternate history', so supernaturalism and existing races (even if they do things they would never do in our world) are allowed. But I wouldn't mind some discussion on what is fantasy and what is not, if I can hijack this thread for it (given the title and its nonexistent use in the last years, I think it should be ok?).

For me, if you call it fantasy, there has to be either some magic, something supernatural, mystic, or mythical in it. I'm including non-existent races, or transformed existing races in that. It doesn't have to be a lot of any of these things, but if there is really nothing, then I don't think it's fantasy. Just a story with swords and castles without any weird races, any gods or magic, or wizards or someting is something else.

For instance, I think A song for Arbonne was mentioned earlier, which I am reading at the moment. Sure, it doesn't have a lot of magic, but it does have the goddess Rian, who seems to be real enough since her priestesses are able to do things that are... well, unscientific. So, fantasy. Whether you call it magic, well, that's a matter of terms, I think, so I see why it would fit for the OP's request, but as for me, I see magic...

@43: I agree with #44. An active LT- and community-member who happens to mention that a book she wrote fits a given request is a lot different from the sort of 'just signed up to pimp my book' advertising of the previous post.

45: This topic is of interest to me, too. While I agree that a lot of "no magic" fantasy is really more like "low magic", there are still occasional titles like Ellen Kushner's stuff that seems clearly "fantasy" to me despite the lack of magic.

Another one that I wonder about a lot is Elizabeth Wein. Her Winter Prince could be read as straight historical fiction... not an ounce of magic in there, but I think it's generally considered fantasy due to its Arthurian connections. And the sequels, which move to a historical Ethiopian setting are still "fantasy" to me, despite their move away from the Arthurian elements. Something about her writing style just reads as "fantasy" to me, though I can't really say why. Some combination of POV, the kind of details that she chooses to focus on in the setting, overall tone...? I dunno.

A while back, I came across the idea of "interstitial" fiction, and I love that concept - that a book can exist somewhere *between* the clear fantasy or historical labels and still be a little bit of both. I like that a lot.

I'm trying and failing to remember if Elizabeth Lynn's Watchtower has any magic in it, but I don't think it does. I haven't read the sequels, though.

>43 LShelby: I also agree with 44 and 45, with a note that I am also more forgiving of one-book authors who at least try to bring up other works for discussion along with their own books.

>46 Niko: The whole genre of magical realism, where many of the books leave the fantasy elements at "were they or weren't they real?" is another borderline thing here- I tend to personally not consider books fantasy when they play coy with the fantasy elements, but I think a convincing case could be made for either way. I think the genre of fantasy is constructed as much from tone and story tropes as it is from setting tropes, too, so that definitely plays into whether or not a work "feels" like fantasy to me.

>47 sandstone78: Very little magic in Watchtower, the two Messengers may have some low-wattage disguise/glamour going on, and that's about it I think.
Some more in the Dancers of Arun as the protagonist is a sorcerer telepath/empath, and part of the events take place in the village of Elath, which has a sort of magic school and is known to have sorcerers as part of its inhabitants.

44 "You, on the other hand, appear to be an active LT user"

Yep. I just passed my seven year thingaversary.

I even posted on this thread back in 2008 (#21) . :)

I don't post to very many threads here in Fantasy Fans, though, because I'm one of those people who doesn't have much to say about the books I read, and I'm not very good at these "come up with books you've read that have criteria x" threads, either. My post at #21 -- one book. Five years later I have managed to think of... a second book. Yippee.

Anyway, when people say "fantasy without magic" I tend to think of the stuff that reads like historical fiction, except that it's an imaginary setting. It doesn't read like science fiction, it doesn't count as true historical fiction... so it gets shoved into fantasy, whether it truly belongs there or not. (And I don't see why it shouldn't be there, myself. Since when have the usages of the word fantasy been confined to things magical? That's not what MY dictionary says.)

There doesn't seem to be a lot of this historical fantasy in an imaginary setting stuff around, though. And I wouldn't consider a number of books mentioned by other people in the thread to qualify either as that kind of book, or as having "no magic". (But, maybe the OP would agree with them and not me, so, whatever.)

But I'm pretty sure the two suggestions I made really don't have magic of any kind. And they were both published as fantasy.

Some posts mentioned what I would call Animal Fables -- but wouldn't talking animals be an alien race, in effect?

I'm surprised no one in the original postings mentioned the Gormenghast books.....

I have to admit, I consider most historical fiction as fantasy, since it's de facto a new world to me :)

46 (Niko): I agree that some books feel like fantasy, even thought they're not. I first read Ender's game when I was younger, and always thought of it as fantasy. Until I mentioned it in a discussion somewhere and someone rightly pointed out that it is SF. I don't know how I missed that, except that it always felt like fantasy to me. When reading SF, I still have a preference for those books that feel like fantasy...
I've never read historical fiction before (except perhaps Outlander, and that can be termed fantasy because of the time portals), so I don't know when one crosses the border. I read the blurb for the books you mention, and I agree, they sound like fantasy. But if there's really no magic of any kind, then why would it be? I suppose it is the setting and style. It is a difficult distinction (and I guess there will always be borderline books, no matter how you define a genre).

47 (sandstone78): I agree. I recently read a book like that: Don't breathe a word. I would not classify that as fantasy, even if there is some ambiguity. (I admit it doesn't help that I really didn't like the book)

49 (LShelby):Anyway, when people say "fantasy without magic" I tend to think of the stuff that reads like historical fiction, except that it's an imaginary setting. It doesn't read like science fiction, it doesn't count as true historical fiction... so it gets shoved into fantasy, whether it truly belongs there or not. (And I don't see why it shouldn't be there, myself. Since when have the usages of the word fantasy been confined to things magical? That's not what MY dictionary says.)
I agree that the word fantasy means more than just things magical, but when we speak of the genre, I do feel that magic is almost a prerequisite (or gods, or weird species or mystical stuff or...). On the other hand, I'm not sure where to classify the types of book you mention either, and sometimes they do feel like fantasy. As with all (?) classifications, they are oversimplifications, and some things get left out or cover more than one class...
Still, to me, a book is not fantasy just because it has swords, castles and an imaginary topography.

50 (rshart3): I agree on the talking animals.

On the matter of genre boundaries, then there's the whole "magical realism" thing: One Hundred Years of Solitude, The Satanic Verses, etc., which typically are treated as distinct from "fantasy," for no obvious reason.

> 52 "On the other hand, I'm not sure where to classify the types of book you mention either, and sometimes they do feel like fantasy. As with all (?) classifications, they are oversimplifications, and some things get left out or cover more than one class...

I have always thought these books need their own designation. I've tried coining the term "Imaginary History" but it hasn't caught on. :(

"Still, to me, a book is not fantasy just because it has swords, castles and an imaginary topography."

Mine has diesel powered ships, telegraph lines and gatling guns.

I suspect you wouldn't consider it fantasy. :)

But I confess that I don't quite understand what would make you consider a book without magic to be fantasy. Would you mind expanding on that a bit? I'm awfully curious.

49 & 50 > There's a Michael Moorcock book, Gloriana, or the Unfulfill'd Queen that would fit. It is similar to Gormenghast in that it's set in a town-sized palace, and it is set in a kind of alternate Elizabethan England. I don't remember any magic and I didn't tag it 'magic', which I tend to do.

I believe that Cynthia Voight's Kingdom novels Jackaroo, On Fortune's Wheel, The Wings of a Falcon, and Elske are all without magic, and they're set in a made-up vaguely English historical setting. They're at a YA reading level, but I think can be enjoyed by adults also.

The closest genre designation I can come up with for novels that take place in a made-up land without magic would be the Ruritanian romance, but that's assuming a generic European setting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruritanian_romance

A fantasy book totally without magic is The Crash of Hennington. It's really hard to describe the setting as the politics, the race relations and the history all read as though they could have happened in our world although they are completely different. Even the wild animals wandering through the town seem realistic, rather than fantasy. I think it may be because the names are normal earth names and the mayoral election at the heart of the story is just like your average everyday local politics.

I don't mean to make it sound boring, because it really isn't. There are only two reviews here, and we both gave it 5 stars.

>57 SaraHope: "The closest genre designation I can come up with for novels that take place in a made-up land without magic would be the Ruritanian romance, but that's assuming a generic European setting."

Although Westmark vaguely resembles the wikipedia description, Harald doesn't really at all. (Kind of an Icelanders versus the Romans feel to that one, actually, except that the geography is entirely different.)

As for my own writings, I have a novella set in a country with a Middle Eastern flavor but with enough differences from the real middle east, that only a very clueless reader would mistake it for a "generic middle eastern setting", and a partially completed graphic novel set in a distinctly non-european setting that leans more toward East Asia than anywhere else on our planet, and then the trilogy I'm in the process of preparing where my heroine is from somewhere vaguely european-ish (but in the southern hemisphere) but the hero is the descendant of one of the characters in the graphic novel, and so feels mostly asian-ish (although his homeland is actually on a small isolated continent, geographically detached from the rest of the world... sort of like Australia.)

"Ruritanian Romance" is clearly an inappropriate designation for these works.

Thinking about the "Is it fantasy, or is it not?" question...

The Prince Commands (listed in the wikipedia article as an example Ruritanian Romance) is actually one of my favorite Norton's, but I never considered it fantasy, even though I generally think of Norton a Fantasy/SF author.

I can't recall if I considered Westmark fantasy when I read it -- I confess to it having been a while.

Harald, though, I do think of as fantasy.

::ponders::

I think I don't consider a book to fit under the speculative fiction umbrella just because its got a made up country, tucked into what is otherwise our world.

But if it's an entirely different world, that's fantastic -- even if no magic was involved in the building thereof. IMHO. YMMV. Other disclaimers as required.

55 (LShelby): But I confess that I don't quite understand what would make you consider a book without magic to be fantasy. Would you mind expanding on that a bit? I'm awfully curious.

Before I answer (and forgive if it takes a while, I will probably need to think on it), could you clarify the question? At the moment I'm leaning towards not counting anything fantasy unless it has magic/mysticism/gods/non-existing species/etc. So are you asking me to try to think of something that isn't any of these things, but would make me classify a book as fantasy? Or do you want me to clarify what it is that makes a book FEEL like fantasy to me (even though I think it strictly isn't?) Or something else entirely?

>60 zjakkelien: "Before I answer (and forgive if it takes a while, I will probably need to think on it), could you clarify the question?"

Well, you said earlier "I read the blurb for the books you mention, and I agree, they sound like fantasy. But if there's really no magic of any kind, then why would it be? I suppose it is the setting and style."

So I guess I'm wondering what it would be about a setting or a style that would say "fantasy" to you, even if there wasn't actually anything magical.

IMO, the existence of humans in a secondary world that is not Earth, and whose presence there isn't explained in science-fictional ways, is as much a flight of fancy as magic or non-existent species, even if said humans and their existence are otherwise perfectly mundane.

The existence of humans on Earth but in an explicitly alternate timeline or an a-historical setting (some time and place we're reasonably sure never existed like the Ruritania of the Prisoner of Zenda, Ryhope Wood, etc..., or that consensus usually relegates to mythical status, like Atlantis), would also still fall under the Fantasy umbrella even if the events and creatures described were perfectly mundane.

>62 Jarandel: The first half of what you said seems like a very reasonable statement to me.

But the second half I'm having a hard time grasping. An awful lot of fiction takes place in settings I am reasonably certain never existed: Imaginary houses, imaginary neighborhoods, imaginary towns. If all those stories are fantasy, then almost all fiction is fantasy... and, uh, I don't see at that point, why anyone would even bother with a "fantasy" genre label... it would be too broad to be in any way useful.

I rather suspect that isn't exactly what you meant, though.

...

Wouldn't there need to be some kind of a "this place can't exist" feeling to it, to make it fantasy, rather than simply a "this place doesn't exist?"

Well, you could make the argument (as one of my favorite authors does) that all fiction is a subset of "fantasy", because it all diverges from the "real" world at one point or another. Heck, the earliest fiction was fantastical in nature: Beowulf, The Odyssey, etc.

If you want a little narrower definition, though, I'd label as fantasy anything that either contains magic or takes place in a secondary world of the author's creation. Shardik is of the latter variety.

>63 LShelby:,64 General fiction uses a lot of made-up places obviously, but almost all of those could fit relatively seamlessly in some more or less precise era and area, or the ties of the place to real world geography and timeline are left vague and unimportant because it isn't the point of the tale at all.

When a sizeable part of the point of the tale is the "What if... ?", the made-up setting, its salient features, its differences from the real world (even if those are of a perfectly mundane nature, and may even have occurred in our historical past, taken in isolation if not all of them together at once), how it's supposed to work, how it impacts the cultures and daily lives of the humans living there, sometime even a precise exploration of how/when it forked from "history as we know it" and what happened afterward, you have fantasy, or at least some shade of speculative fiction, even if there's no magic, elves or spaceships in sight.

>65 Jarandel: Aha! I think I'm following you now. Thanks for expanding. :)

65 (and in responce to 61): Perhaps you have a point, and that is what makes a book feel like fantasy, even though there is no magic. In a fantasy book, there would be clear world-building. In a historical book, the world-building would be less (it would still be there since another culture or time changes the world enough from ours that it would be necessary). I'm reading A song for Arbonne right now, and although this has some mysticism, and therefore classifies as fantasy for me, if you left out the magic, I would probably still think it is fantasy.

There is one more thing I've been thinking about, though. I'm not sure if it really is something. And I haven't read a lot of historical books, so I can't say if there is really a difference. But I've got the feeling that there is a certain tone to a fantasy book that differs from other books. I find it hard to describe, but it is something shiny. Perhaps optimistic would not be the right word. It's just that everything fits in the end. There are heroes. There are the kind of worlds where heroes can live, where heroes do heroic things, and these things have meaning, they go somewhere. People never get blown up for nothing, or at least not the important ones. It's like a fantasy world is just a bit bigger than life, just a bit more beautiful.

I realize this is not true for every fantasy book. And I don't think I'm describing the feeling at all well. Perhaps it helps if I mention a book that is unequivocally fantasy, but that doesn't give me that feeling. I'm talking about Lev Grossman's The magicians. I found that book to be utterly depressing. I got the feeling I was reading literature (I have a few prejudices, sorry about that) instead of fantasy, and as a result I didn't like it at all.

Sorry about all this rambling. I realize it's highly unlikely you understand what I mean, but if you do, and you can say it better than me, please help out...

>67 zjakkelien:

I thought you explained it okay.

And I think I'm pretty much with you on this, except that I don't associate the "heroic" sensation as "what it is to be fantasy", I only associate it with "what I personally prefer to read".

:)

Less moral ambiguity, perhaps?

I'm reading Diana Wynne Jones's Reflections: On the Magic of Writing--it's not only splendid reading, but she also talks a great deal about fantasy and the heroic in a wonderfully lucid way.

>69 Marissa_Doyle:

I don't think that moral ambiguity necessarily leads to the sorts of stories zjakkelien doesn't like, nor that the lack is going to make something feel heroic. (If it does, I misunderstood what was being described.)

I have enjoyed many stories about cultures in conflict, where the correctness of moral choices becomes a bit uncertain due to conflicting cultural values. Trying to find a solution that will work for the characters from both cultures becomes an interesting problem to solve.

The ones I don't enjoy often seem to me to be crystal clear in their moralities: everyone's evil. Anyone who starts out not particularly evil, is forced by circumstance to abandon their moral code, or dies horribly if they they refuse to do so, or maybe just spends the first two volumes being tortured and raped and so forth. (Presumably they eventually manage to accomplish something, instead of just suffering a lot, I wouldn't know, I never stick around that long.)

Ah yes The Paladin.

also A Brother’s Price

though it is steampunk in tech. I have not read Merovingian nights series byy Cherryh but for all it is set off world it might fit

I seem to recall that the Merovingian Nights stuff had spaceships in the background. It's been a while, since I read any of it, though, so maybe I'm remembering wrong.

Not sure if this classify as fantasy or historical fiction but Bernard Cornwall wrote an AWESOME trilogy based on the King Arthur legends. the first one in the series is called "The Winter King." I highly recommend it . There is a tiny bit of magic but not much.

Here Lies Arthur In which his contemporaries quite deliberately construct the myth of Arthur.

Not sure if this would qualify but based on some of the descriptions here, Le Guin's Always coming home comes to mind.

Some time ago, I started a thread asking for medieval stories sans fantasy.

Prince of Thorns has almost NO magic. It was awesome!

The Chronicles of Pern are sci-fi (they bioengineer the dragons), but you might enjoy them.  I started with The Harper Hall of Pern, though the author always requested that we read Dragonriders of Pern, first.

Leslie Barringer's Neustrian Cycle (http://www.librarything.com/series/Neustrian+Cycle ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Barringer)

Titus Groan

If limited telepathy (with animals only, I think) is not counted, then the "Horseclans" series by Robert Adams fits the bill. No elves, orks, or dragons.

The "Hiero" series by Sterling E. Lanier might do too. No magic, no elves. Some mutants and a very smart moose, and telepathy.

David Drake's "The General" series.

David Weber's "Safehold" series.

45 zjakkelien:

Concerning what constitutes fantasy. What about books where the existence or non-existence of magic is itself in question? My favourite along those lines is The Truth about Unicorns by Bonnie Jones Reynolds. I am now convinced that there is magic in the book with the clues being subtle, but, when I first read it, I thought that the story could be interpreted either as containing magic or as pure historical fantasy. The plot certainly revolves around people attempting to cause harm through witchcraft, but the harm done seems to require no supernatural explanation; it also revolves around accusations of people committing witchcraft, but in the latter case, the accuser is clearly batshit insane.

I don't remember Lieber's Our Lady of Darkness that well, but it seemed to have that same element uncertainty about whether or not magic was actually there.

Stanislav Lem wrote a novel where an American ex-astronaut travels to Italy to try to determine who is killing Americans there. In this case, there is an entirely natural explanation at the end of the novel, but I'm thinking that there must be others of the kind, where you don't really know.

in Tree and Leaf by Tolkien, how would you classify Leaf by Niggle? It's clearly fantasy, but of that sort where magic is imbued in the landscape rather than something practiced.

What to do with Richard Brautigan's In Watermelon Sugar? Fantasy? or allegorical acid trip? Each day has a different coloured sun that relates to a flavour of watermelon sugar; yes, there are tigers that can sing, but take them out and the plot remains equally weird. Yet there is very little here to appeal to someone who like "magic", but a lot to someone who likes fantasy.

I suspect that a novel is fantasy if it is not an echo of the mundane world (whatever that means). This doesn't distinguish fantasy from sci fi, but that's sub-niggling.

the Merily Watkins series walks the border between fact and fantasy with style
https://www.librarything.com/series/Merrily+Watkins

SimonW11 : ta for the recommendation.