Deathly Hallows Chapters 5-8 Discussion
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5: Fallen Warrior
6: The Ghoul in Pajamas
7: The Will of Albus Dumbledore
8: The Wedding
Did I beat foggi?
Chapter 5: Fallen Warrior
1. Even knowing Hagrid is alive, it is still heartwrenching to read about Harry trying to revive him.
2. My first real tears are when Harry tells Hagrid what happened to Hedwig.
3. How awful for Mrs. Weasley and Ginny to have those portkeys show up with no people!
4. Dumbledore’s last words to Lupin and Kingsley were pretty heavy: “Harry is the best hope we have, trust him.” Of course, I almost see Yoda standing next to him saying “No, there is another.” Part of me still thinks maybe Voldemorte got the wrong kid and Neville was really the one in the prophecy.
5. A hushed up mass breakout at Azkaban, eh? I was wondering why I didn’t remember Lucius getting out.
6. I cried again when Fred and Mr. Weasley got there, but then started cracking up at “Pathetic! With the whole wide world of ear-related humor before you, you go for holey?”
7. I wish we could see some affection from Lupin towards Tonks. Here he just seems mad.
Edited to fix cryed and goth
1. Everyone knows (I think) that I was convinced that Rubeus (Red) Hagrid was a goner in this book because of alchemy. I was sure this was it for our "biggest friend".
2. I can't believe I (or anyone else for that matter) didn't bring this up in the last discussion, where it really belonged but, Hagrid leaping at the Death Eater; bravery or stupidity?
3. In this chapter we get a glimpse of what its like for the family of those in the war. The Tonks, Molly & Ginny all waiting to find out what will happen. I think this is particularly poignant at a time when we are at war as well.
4. Here I think we get a better explanation of the expelliarmus thing, it really shows Harry's "saving people thing" which is likely what really is his "signature move".
5. "Saintlike"! This might be one of the best Forge exchanges in the whole series. It's so needed at this point!
6. I forgot for a second that Lupin would be extra worried for Tonks, then she comes back and I really like their reunion, I find it very realistic.
7. It seems to me that when they're looking for someone who might have let slip the date for moving Harry, the Dursleys would make the most sense. Obviously I know that's not what happened, but it easily could have.
I dunno, maybe I'm not making sense, but it seems like a long way to go to get Hedwig killed.
I love Forge in that chapter, tho.
1. I was glad Harry's tooth got regrown. When he lost the tooth I was picturing him without it the rest of the book and thinking a hero missing a tooth doesn't paint as pretty a picture.
2. On Hedwig: "The owl had been his companion, his one great link with the magical world whenever he had been forced to return to the Dursley's." Supports the idea of leaving behind everything of comfort.
2.2: I agree that it is worse when Harry is telling Hagrid about Hedwig since Hagrid got her for Harry. :(
3. I rather like that we keep returning to Expelliarmus being used to escape Voldemort successfully.
4. Harry valuing life so highly, being careful not to "blast people" out of his way, is so important to the series, especially this book. It's a stand against "for the greater good" without actually using that phrase.
5. Dumbledore's last words to Lupin and Kinsley are heavy, compski. I like them a lot. It made me think of "I'm not worried, I'm with you" from book 6.
6. So how does Voldemort fly anyway?
7. Why are some apparating/disapparating noises loud cracks and others small pops?
8. I feel bad for it, but Mad-Eye's death didn't hit me very hard because I was so much more concerned for Ron, Tonks, Hagrid, etc.
9. I love the decision Harry makes to trust, which proves correct, just as Dumbledore's choice was correct, even when Lupin reminds Harry how vulnerable trusting can make someone.
10. Thestrals graze? (Harry goes outside alone and a thestral is grazing.) Maybe it was grazing on garden gnomes..
It has always bugged me how arbitrary some of Jo's rules are.
Here are my chapter 5 notes:
1) We've already said it, but let me reiterate: "Fallen Warrior" is a cruel chapter title. We were so sure it was the end of Hagrid, when we first read it.
2) I have a hard time thinking of Tonks as "Dora," or as Mrs. Lupin, for that matter. One of my college roommates was like that -- her first name was Sarah, so we called her by her last name. Though she's been married for several years now, I still think of her by her last name occasionally.
3) The ear episode helps build more ambiguity about Snape.
4) I love Ron's line: "Always the tone of surprise." We needed that moment of humor in those tense moments.
5) More about trust, which is another major theme of the series -- DD trusted everyone, James trusted his friends, Harry trusts the Order . . .
6) Harry says he should leave -- but where does he think he would go? I know he's not being reasonable, but it seems like he should be okay with taking a few minutes to plan before he goes haring off.
6.7: I asked the same thing in the OotP discussion. I think the general consensus was that it had to do with magical control. The more control you have over your magic the quieter your apparition. (Dung and house-elves CRACK, Kingsley and DD pop...)
6.8: I don't think his death is supposed to hit you that hard. I think she's starting slow...we don't really know Mad-Eye that well, the most time we spent with him it wasn't actually him after all! I think this is another of those "People are going to die, a lot" things. For me, it hits harder later with Umbridge and the Eye...
6.10: I noticed that too. Let me see what the Lexicon says about them, maybe they're omnivores...
Hmmmm.....just says they're attracted to the scent of blood. Are they in FB? I don't have that book.
8.6: I imagine he'd head straight for Godric's Hollow. But I really bet part of him knew he'd be talked out of it, he backed down pretty quickly!
#2.4 -- Heavy words, indeed. I wonder what the context was. About the prophecy, though -- I think it was ambiguous enough that it could have meant either. Did we ever get a good explanation as to why Voldy decided it was referring to Harry instead of Neville?
#2.7 -- See, I didn't get that at all -- like Bib, I thought his reaction was very realistic, and I agree that being in control of his emotions is important to him.
#3 -- Good point, that the lack of control he experiences as a werewolf would affect him that way.
#4.1 -- Alchemy? I think I missed wherever you explained your theory on that.
#4.2 -- My vote is for bravery -- he was willing to die to protect Harry.
#4.7 -- Good point, and nobody thinks of it. Maybe they couldn't get at the Dursleys -- I think the Dursleys were protected just as much as Harry was by that bit of magic.
#5 -- I tend to agree with you -- this early in the book, I'm patient with a little dragging on, but later I get quite sick of it. And maybe they were hoping that Voldy would assume that, because the Burrow was the obvious place, they would put Harry somewhere else? All of this guessing of intentions gets complicated.
#6.6 -- I don't think this is ever explained -- and I want it explained, since Snape does it later!
#6.7 -- Maybe it has to do with how accomplished the wizard doing the apparating is?
#6.8 -- Yes, it does sort of cheapen t, doesn't it? Especially since, going into the chapter, you think it's Hagrid -- so there's a sort of relief there, "oh, it's only Mad-Eye." But then, I've never been able to like the "real" Mad-Eye as much as I liked the imposter. That charade did interesting things to my perception of that character. For example, later (maybe in the next chapter?) Hermione and Ron are talking about what Mad-Eye would say, and they use the phrase "Constant vigilance!" - -which, though in character for Moody, I don't think we ever heard the real Moody say -- that was the imposter Moody's catchphrase.
#6.10 -- Maybe they eat grass when there's no carrion readily available?
#7 -- Yeah, that is pretty arbitrary.
1. I can't imagine what it must have been like for Ginny and Mrs. Weasly. Esp. Since they have the largest chance of it being a family member who dies (counting in their case Hermione and Harry as family too). It made my tummy hurt the frist time I read it.
2. They can't even like magically attach a new ear?
3. Mad-Eye dying really means nothing to me, I mean it sucks but out of everyone in the group...
That's all I can think of right now left my book at home.
12: I was just stating what is said in the book. As you know, there are certain areas of magic that irk me as well!
13: Interesting question. If he had left then, he wouldn't know that Bathilda lived in Godric's Hollow so there would have had to have been a coincidental meeting somewhere and she would have had to tell him why she was important to his and DD's past...
14.4.1: I know I've talked about it elsewhere but I'll try to be brief. Basically, alchemy can be a literary device and it's one that JKR has used in the series. There are four stages to alchemy, all four are gone through in the first 3 books and the last four books are each one step (generally). GoF is the prep step, we get our first death and begin to get an idea of what's to come. I'm not going to go into describing the rest of the steps, I'll just give you enough to know why I thought what I did. Step 2 is the "Black" stage, in the Step 2 book, Sirius Black dies. Step 3 is the "White" stage, in the Step 3 book, Albus Dumbledore dies; Albus means "white". Step 4 is called the "Red" stage. Rubeus means red. I was so sure I was right on this! (For more information on JKR's use of the alchemical process read Looking for God in Harry Potter.
14.4.7: Do you think that the Dursley's were holed up in the house all month? I figured it would be pretty easy for a Death Eater good at passing to strike up a conversation with Dudley or Vernon and get the info of when they were leaving out of them.
4.1 I thought he was a goner, too Bib.
4.2 I am sorry to say stupidity. Harry had Hagrid's girth between him and the handlebars. How was he supposed to control the bike after Hagrid leaped?
6.6 Maybe you levicorpus yourself to fly. Didn't Hagrid fly to get to Harry to deliver the letter in book 1?
6.8 I felt bad about Moody, but not moved to tears. Technically we (and Harry) never got to know the real Moody very well. We mostly saw Barty Crouch Moody.
7 Supposedly you could grow it back if it wasn't dark magic. Kind of like when Mr. Weasley's snake bites wouldn't heal. On the other hand, Snape fixed Malfoy when sectumsempra was used on him and that was the same spell that took off George's ear.
16 It is nice to see that there is life going on besides Harry. I guess that we see Voldemort sometimes, but Ron and Hermione are much more fun.
9.6.7/14.6.7: The wizard's magical ability deciding the apparating noise is an acceptable explanation. That's what I suspected, but I needed group approval! ;)
9.6.8: Good point! Mad-Eye's death is more of a warm-up.
12: Harry's bones were dissolved through a healing spell gone wrong, not Dark Magic.
14.2.4: The best explanation I can think of is that Voldemort chose someone more like him instead of a pure blood. Doesn't really say why, but that's the best I can come up with. However, Harry isn't technically half-blood -- his mom was a witch (born to Muggles, but a witch nonetheless).
19.11: 'ear, 'ear!!
18.104.22.168: Bib, that's really great! I'm sorry you weren't right, that was so well thought out!
20.7: When Harry did it to Malfoy, he didn't remove any body parts. The scars he caused, however, remain. Curses don't heal the same as other magic, that has been consistent.
Whatever. I'm just being contrarian I guess.
1) "Harry gathered that she (Fleur) still suspected Hagrid . . ." Well, so did he, didn't he? When Lupin and Kingsley were saying that someone had let slip the date, Harry's mind went straight to Hagrid. Assuming that Hagrid might tell people about Harry's disguise doesn't make sense, either, since Hagrid will surely be one of the people who knows that Harry is at the wedding.
2) "Squit" -- is that a word? (Spellcheck says no, for what that's worth.)
3) Ron is of age -- can't he clean his room by magic?
4) Ah, now we get to the big controversy of the chapter: Dumbledore and censorship. He removed the Horcrux books from the Hogwarts library. What does everyone else think of this?
5) I love Ron's line about having "such a large supply of Basilisk fangs" -- and the almost slapstick way it comes true later.
25.2: Again, huh?
25.3: I imagine he hasn't perfected those spells, they don't seem like the kind of thing he would practice much.
25.4: I know this is a twitchy subject. I'm kind of okay with their removal from a school library. I don't think I'd particularly want my child to go to a school where they'd have access to books that could teach them "Magick Moste Evil". I also think it's important to note that DD simply removed the books from the libaray, he did not destroy them or even take them out of the school.
26.25.4 I was typing the same thing with I accidentally closed out..I don't really know what happened. But yes, I think because the books are so evil it's ok to remove them. But I agree that we should note that they were not destroyed or even well protected since Hermione could just Accio them. (although we could assume that any magic DD placed on the books to keep them in his office could have broken as soon as he died)
Basically, Fleur makes some comment about Harry needing a disguise, since the wedding guests might get tipsy and spill that he was there. She then looks significantly at Hagrid -- or at least, that's Harry's perception. I'm saying that Hagrid already knows where Harry is, and knows that Harry will be at the wedding in disguise. Thinking it over, I'm guessing that Fleur really didn't mean that Hagrid might be the guest to get tipsy and give away crucial information -- but Harry, who just had that thought about Hagrid, has something of a guilty conscience, and infers that.
Does that make more sense than my original post, or less?
1. Mrs. Weasley is a masterful manipulator in her own right!
2. I'm confused about spells and death. In HBP, Harry knows DD's dead b/c the spell wears off, but what about Mad-Eye's spells at #12 Grimmauld Place? Of the permanent sticking charms and other spells done by Sirius' parents? Or any number of other still active spells performed by now dead wizards?
3. So apparently in the wizarding world no body=no funeral or service of any kind even when you know the person is dead?
4. I know part of it was that book, but Ron finally starts to understand women, and Hermione in particular. I love when he gives her the hanky and later glowers at Harry for being tactless. You're with me, right LG?!
5. Poor Hermione, knowing that her parents don't know sheexists must be simultaneously horrifying and relieving.
6. Okay, there's that question semi-answered, how Riddle learned to make a Horcrux in the first place, which was a question I brought up in the HBP discussion.
7. Remorse is the way to restore your soul. In the past we've discussed whether Snape had killed anyone other than DD. I imagine if he did, he just might have healed his soul with remorse, which would somewhat explain the "What of my soul" conversation with DD.
By a regular spell. What if there were a cut spell that people used to cut paper or cloth and it was accidentally used on someone's ear. In that case the ear could be regrown since the spell was not dark magic. I'm a little fuzzy on the definition of "curse" anyway, as opposed to other kinds of spells.
#29.2 -- Yeah, this is certainly an area where it's not consistent -- or, at least, not well-explained. Maybe some spells are meant to last even after death, while others have a built-in expiration? Though now I have a funny mental image of Sirius' Mum dying, and at that moment, everything falls off the walls of her house!
#29.5 -- We see so much of Ron's parents, hear so much about Harry's parents, but Hermione's parents are a bit of an enigma. I guess there wasn't really any reason to fully develop those characters.
#29.7 -- Perhaps DD knew that Snape will feel remorse over DD's death? That might also explain some of Snape's pained/angry facial expression at the end of HBP.
29.4 I love how adorable and attentive Ron becomes to Hermione needs, and the proud look he gives himself when he cleans off the hanky before giving it to her.
29.5 It must be so weird for her.
the book seems to have discribed "how" to make a horocrux which makes me again think there is more to it that just killing. Killing in a certain way or with a certain feeling or intent. I don't know. I think "what of my soul" to me was always that ones soul may be injured in the act of killing, thus making it easier to take the extra step to breaking it completely, but only if you take that step.
Anyhoo, yes, bib, I'm right with you on loving Ron trying to get a clue about Hermione. Adorable.
What I want to know is: why is it even possible to remove library books from Hogwarts grounds? You'd think they'd have a spell on them to keep them from being absconded with, or at least a trace.
I have a note something about "who the h*ll does Mrs. Weasley think she is?!" in regard to her trying to thwart the heroes from talking to each other. Why in the world would she second-guess DD's direct instructions?
I don't get how horcruxes actually work. Hermione says that a horcrux is the exact opposite of a soul: if its container is broken, it dies. But once you have created a horcrux, doesn't this same idea then apply to the bit of soul left in your body, the original container? Why is it possible for Voldy's "original bit of soul" to survive, with no container (until somehow Quirrell finds it), but any of the subsequent bits die off if their container is broken. So, your intact soul is immortal, but if you break it into bits, the "original bit" becomes more resilient?
Also, if the bit of soul in a horcrux dies, then SPOILER what in the world is that crying thing in the King's Cross Station?!!!!
Like I said, I just don't think I understand it.
What would make sense to me is if you needed one of the horcruxes in order to do a resurrection. In other words, if your original body died, you would need a minion to recover a horcrux in order to extract the bit of soul, and introduce that bit of soul into the new body. Instead, there's this limboland where Voldy's soul is disembodied, but still there, and all the horcruxes still exist.
25.4 Tough question. I guess I think it is okay because what they instruct can hurt others. On the other hand, the books are not there for the people who want to fight dark magic and need to know more about it.
26.25.4 Good point. Dumbledore had the books and could monitor who read them.
29.2 Good points! Maybe since Dumbledore's spell on Harry was so quick it stopped when he was killed. I could see Moody being more careful and making sure his protective spell would last even if he was killed. Same with the Blacks.
29.5 I think it must make her feel very alone, even though she has Harry and the Weasley's.
Chapter 6: The Ghoul in Pajamas
1. I love Mrs. Weasley trying to keep them busy and apart! Like that would really work.
2. I think it is odd that Ginny is surprised that Harry is going after Voldemort. What does she think they are going to do? A pleasure tour of Europe?
3. Ron being tactful is the best!
4. When Harry brings up going alone, I love Ron and Hermione: “Here he goes.” “As we knew he would.” I love it when they have their inside jokes and we get a glimpse of what they are like without Harry around.
5. I love that Hermione decided to take Hogwarts, A History. She wouldn’t be Hermione without it! She regretted not having it in year 2. I think she left it behind because of all the Lockhart books. Here, though, she tosses aside Travels with Trolls. I guess she is over him!
6. I am impressed at how much thought Hermione and Ron put into their going and protecting their families when their gone. Has Mr. Andrew run into Wendell and Monica Wilkens yet?
7. Weren’t Fleur’s parents at the Triwizard Tournament. Wouldn’t they have met Harry and thanked him for saving Gabrielle? They may have even met the Weasleys. All the parents were at the last event. I am glad that JKR made Fleur’s parents likable.
1) I Loved the whole "Harry is our lsat hope."-thing. So Star Wars-ish.
2) We found out in CoS that DD wasn't headmaster at the time when V was at school; he was a teacher. Now, knowing that V made his first Horcrux while he was at school and knowing that DD removed the Horcrux books, it suonds as though he (DD) abused his power as a teacher. He wasn't headmaster, but pulled a headmaster by censoring books in the library.
Lupin says polyjuice potion is for "human use only" in explanation for why he doesn't interrogate Hagrid. How soon they forget about Hermione's cat incident.
Harry: If Voldemort finds out I'm here...
Mrs. Weasly: Why should he?
Um, lots of reasons, first of all, it's the most obvious place to look, second of all, there's a wedding in 3 days. Well....you get my point.
Chpt 6, all already mentioned.
Why doesn't DD leave Harry his wand? I haven't thought this through completely, but it occurred to me while reading. He does leave Harry the other hallow in his possession. In the event Voldy figures out that it's the hallow one, isn't it safer in Harry's possession than buried with DD?
I love how the minute Harry turns 17, JKR puts 2 dick jokes on one page.
The BIG QUESTION: ARe Harry & Ginny still virgins? Discuss....
Would Scrimgeour give away so much about the Snitch?
The writing on the Snitch reminds me of the One Ring.
Chpt 8 "The Wedding of Exposition"
Convenient how Harry manages to sit next to lots of people in a posiiton to give him important information. (To which my husband said, dude, it's a book!)
People I love: Luna (she recognises Harry right away. She doesn't miss a trick that one!)
Xenophilious: who will play him in the movie?
Auntie Muriel: I want to be her when I'm really old!
Love: Vot is the point of being an international quidditch player if all the good looking girls are taken.
My chapter 7 notes:
Chapter 7: The Will of Albus Dumbledore
1. Great drawing of Harry and Ginny to start the chapter.
2. I am glad JKR had remembered to work some humor into this book. I love Ron saying he tries to not think about the chaser with the record for most quaffle drops and that Harry gets poked in the eye the first time he used of age magic.
3. Lupin looks unhappy and Tonks looks radiant. Hmmmmm…
4. Norbert is a girl! I am surprised JKR didn’t use Norbert(a) in GoF.
5. Great move having the snitch only work with Harry’s mouth, not his hand.
6. Cinderella. “What’s that, an illness?” kik
It was ever thus, I guess.
Do you think they should have Sex Ed class at Hogwarts? Usually, boarding schools do.
I think we talked a bit about censorship and the Hogwarts library a while back, when we were discussing CoS and the Restricted Section. The consensus on that was that, since the Hogwarts library serves everyone from first-years to teachers doing basically post-graduate research, and since the school functions in loco parentis, having some books not accessible to younger students was acceptable. I think DD took it a step further with the Horcrux books. My hope would be that they were still cataloged, though -- and, since Hermione couldn't find them, I'm guessing that they weren't. I think that, if DD found the books dangerous enough to remove them from the library, he should have left a catalog record for them, with a note stating that they were located in the Headmaster's office, so that if someone needed them, they would still be able to locate them. I mean, those books were just as inaccessible to McGonagall as they were to Hermione.
Of course, I'm not sure if there is a catalog for the Hogwarts library. Surely there is, right? Right?
#34 -- Good point! It seems like all Hogwarts property should be magically protected. I'm remembering another book (Charmed Life) where items taken from the house start shouting "I belong to Chrestomanci Castle!
#41, ch. 7 -- I think DD thought the wand would be too much of a temptation for anyone. I think he thought Snape would be the wand's master (having defeated DD) without knowing it, so the wand wouldn't have served Harry well, anyway -- and that it was safer buried with him than out in the world.
The virginity question -- yeah, I think so. Their relationship was pretty short, to have escalated that fast (not saying it couldn't have happened, just that it doesn't seem likely). As you say, JKR leaves it up to interpretation . . . but my interpretation is that the steamy kiss in Ginny's bedroom was as far as they had ever gone.
1) I love the chapter illustration in the American edition.
2) The third sentence in (Voldy searching for Gregorovich) has a "house that Jack built" quality to it -- kinda irritating, actually.
3) Ron's book cracks me up!
4) I love that Molly and Arthur give Harry the traditional gift -- just one more point emphasizing that he's considered part of their family.
5) Angsty kiss! (Already talked about that above, but wanted to put in that note!)
6) Harry tells Ron that Ginny can't possibly be expecting them to get married or anything -- actually, I'm pretty sure that is what Ginny is thinking. Of course, Harry hasn't read the book yet, so he has no idea how witches think. ;-)
7) Lupin worried, Tonks radiant . . . I knew right away what that was all about.
8) I love the built-in lawyer joke: "No, I'm hoping to do some good in the world."
9) Ronald Billius. Wizarding names are weird, weird, weird.
10) "I open at the close" -- could you be any more cryptic, DD?
(Edited to fix a typo.)
Ah, young love.....actually, I think they're still virgins myself, but I don't think they're totally innocent virgins, if you catch my drift.
Still think they're virgins, tho.
It's the last day of the month and work got crazy after lunch. I'll be back when I get home! Please don't leave me with another 20 to catch up on! :)
1. What's a "mangle," p. 87 American ed.? Something to do with laundry?
2. I love seeing Hermione sorting through the books. And of course that she takes Hogwarts, A History but tosses Defensive Magical Theory from year 5 without thinking twice. :)
3. "We're staying with you. That was decided months ago -- years, really."
I love the references to how long they've been friends, how much they've been through together.
5. Ron really can be quite funny. He's definitely related to the twins after all!
4. At the end of the chapter, Mrs. Weasley gives Harry "a long, searching look, then smiled a little sadly, straightened up, and walked away." Harry seems to think it's because she's so inconvenienced at his presence, but I think it's much more for all she's remembering about Harry growing up, and now he's 17 and going off to do unknown and dangerous things.
I agree with you all saying Harry and Ginny are still virgins. From all Harry's reminiscences, perhaps not perfect angelic ones, but virgins nonetheless.
1. Harry and Voldemort both have very obsessive personalities.
2. I don't remember Mrs. Weasley having a problem with Charlie's hair length. Just Bill's.
3. So is Harry catching that first snitch in his mouth a lucky coincidence for Rowling or did she plan that? There are so many little details that I wonder how she thought to plan such tiny pieces that fit the whole so well. Maybe some of you know better, but do you think she plans it all out, or just makes it up as she goes along?
1) Ah, Xeno! Explains a lot about Luna, doesn't it?
2) "Not as gormless as he looks in his press photographs" -- Auntie Muriel has Dan's number, all right! He, at least, always looks a bit "gormless" in publicity shots.
3) The tiara -- another red herring. I was so sure that Auntie Muriel had some unknown Ravenclaw connection, and that tiara would be a horcrux that had been right in front of them all along.
4) We have the wispy officiating wizard, the one uncomfortable place where magic and religion cross paths. Apparently there's only one wizarding cleric in all of Britain.
5) He declares them "bonded for life" -- is this a spell, or just the wizarding version of vows? Are there any divorced witches and wizards?
6) Krum's girl troubles always give me a chuckle.
7) In this chapter, we have the first of many examples in this book of blatant disregard for the limitations of Polyjuice Potion. Maybe we're supposed to assume that Harry has been swigging it all along, but it's not mentioned, and yet we know the wedding drags on for hours.
8) "Let nothing tarnish your memories of Albus Dumbledore" -- Doge has my sympathies here, but I can see Harry's point of view, too. He always has to know.
9) Are we always going to end our weekly readings on a cliffhanger? ;-)
See my comments about Dan's "gormlessness" in the TV thread. Oy!
53-54 They just held hands and talked in those out-of-the-way places! Anything else is blasphemy! I am covering my
56.4 I was thinking about Mrs. Weasley's look. I thought she maybe felt bad for him that he had no parents. At that point were the Weasleys already planning to give Harry her brother's watch? She may have also been thinking about her brother with that sad look.
Notes on the last chapter:
Chapter 8: The Wedding
1. Luna is pretty smart. She could tell Barney was Harry. Maybe the gnome bite gave her special powers to see through polyjuice potion.
2. “Wow, you look great!” “Always the tone of surprise.” Way to give it right back to him, Hermione!
3. So Ron’s middle name came from a crazy uncle who never married.
4. I am so glad JKR brought Krum back, but I wish it was for more. After all, his presence actually got Ron to dance!
5. The wedding sounds beautiful. I hope they leave it in the movie. I like how JKR describes that Fleur’s radiance made everyone more beautiful.
6. He solved the mystery of who Gregorovitch was pretty quick.
7. Poor Victor! All the good looking girls are taken. There must be some extra veela cousins around.
8. Muriel heard the Bathilda Bagshot was quite gaga these day. Voldemort may have already gotten to her.
9. Another cliffhanger stopping point! Luckily we have all read the book already.
Still think they're virgins, tho.
(Yes, I just dragged a joke across threads, sorry for the confusion.)
RE: The Making of a Horcrux
What I understand you need for a Horcrux is an item, a murder, and a spell. I'm not sure where I got that, but there you go.
44: It doesn't really seem like there is a catalog. They seem to have an awful lot of trouble finding what they're looking for throughout the years anyway.
45: You took the words right out of my mouth!
56.5: Most of the Weasley's seem to have good senses of humor. Just Percy seems to have missed out. I think, though we don't see it that often, Molly must have a good sense of humor to be married to Arthur!
57.3: I think that part was definitely planned. We know there are some things that changed from the original plan, such as which Weasley died and when, but things like that were definitely planned from the start.
60.3: That never even occurred to me!
60.7: I noticed that too, but I think I forgot to write anything down about it. I definitely took note where it said Harry took an "extra-large dose" of polyjuice potion. Rule changing!
60.9: I just checked, no.
63.6: Pretty amazing really. He's never been that quick before!
65: I imagine it won't be the last time.
66: KIK! Love it!
There is a god.
#68 bib, I'm glad I'm not the only one! I bet suge is with us on this one. Still think their virgins, tho, but not for long.
I agree that they are virgins, but I also agree that they've tested the limits a little of what virginity means. Now I hope to not have to discuss that again in this thread.
We'll hear about it later in the book, if I remember correctly, but I'm pretty sure that Bathilda had been dead for months by the time Harry got there. First, that kind of smell takes a little while to build up, and second, I think someone mentions to Harry that investigators had found her body in a severe state of decomposition, so I don't think it would have done Harry any good to go straight to Godric's Hollow.
I want to address both horcruxes and spells that last with one point. Foggi ad I disagree about this point, but I've always thought that Voldy had set up the horcrux spell before he killed Harry. Dumbledore did say that Harry's death was Voldemort's plan for a horcrux. What could be greater than killing the child that could ruin your new world order?
So Voldy set up the spell and then it was activated by his own death. I think that this does prove that some spells can outlast a wizard's death. I think that the difference comes from what kind of spell it is, and what it depends on.
Moody's spell, and the horcrux were set up to take effect apart from the wizard. Both were set up and then activated on their own when a certain set of circumstances was fulfilled. I consider these spells to use the active power of the wizard to cast, but then they use latent power to activate. Such power is divided and separate from the wizard who casts it after the initial spell.
Dumbledore's spell, and any defensive spell, are set up in a hurry. You can't set a Stupify spell so it effects a wizard as a trap. I think of these spells as requiring a wizard's active power to use. They activate in a flash and leave no latent magic behind other than a sort of residue.
This is how I make it work in my mind. I don't know if that ill do it for any of you, but if you still aren't convinced I will try to think up a reasonable analogy (possibly something with computers).
I think Harry became a horcrux by accident, mostly because Voldy didn't actually die, since he already had 5 or 6 horcruxes out there. If he set it up, wouldn't James or Lily's death work as well to create the horcrux? Why say it was Voldy's own death that activated it?
Plus, if he planned to make Harry a horcrux, wouldn't he know that later? If he did know it, he wouldn't want Harry dead.
A separate thought about Neville: It always did require 2 boys to kill Voldy. Harry was going to have to die, so you had to have Neville there as backup to kill Voldy if Harry decided to stay dead. That was always Harry's choice and the prophecy said nothing about that bit.
Espy, that was well-explained and exactly how I see the difference between lasting magic and magic that ends with the wizard's death.
1. There were enough highly skilled witches/wizards around to be able to change Harry's appearance without Polyjuice. I was fine with Polyjuice in the first 6 books, it was used in moderation. This book, as it appears everyone agrees, it is way over-used.
2. One of the saddest moments of rereading, "When I get married...." :'( Why didn't she make him say if!? She must like to make us all cry.
3. Luna is so wonderfully perceptive. What a great character.
4. The paragraph with Fleur walking up the aisle is beautiful. It's nice to see Fleur sharing her radiance with everyone instead of just enjoying her own beauty.
5. I liked that Harry remembered Gregorovitch when he saw Krum. It seemed quite a natural train of thought to me, that the name reminded him of Quidditch and seeing Krum brought it all back.
#59, LG, thanks! I've seen them, I just didn't know that's what they were called!
60.3: I thought that about the tiara too. That's why Rowling is hard to guess: She comes up with plenty of things to distract us.
60.5: I wondered that too, about being "bonded for life" because then there are the sparkles that drift down around them from his wand, so is it truly life-bonding?
63.3: Because Ron's middle name was someone who died, and because of his sacrificing himself in the chess game in book 1, a friend of mine was convinced Ron was doomed in this book. That he would again sacrifice himself so Harry could go on to meet Voldemort.
Wouldn't there be something intriguing of Voldy's left behind at Godric's Hollow if that were the case? That would have been a good clue for someone to find (DD perhaps), if it really happened that way. Nothing JKR put in the books or said in interviews has indicated that, or at least I haven't seen it.
But good theorizing, espy! You remind me of the "final cylon" theorizers over on the BSG boards.
Again, intriguing theory.....
I think that the object Voldy was planning on making into a horcrux was his wand, but I'm entirely willing to concede this because there is nothing to prove that was Voldy's plan. It would fit in line with making his diary a horcrux because it was an object he thought would be famous. He didn't know at this point that another wand existed that shared a trait with his.
I don't know whether to be honored or terrified that I remind you of BSG theorizers since I've avoided the BSG addiction...
Honored or terrified, I'd say both.
You should check out BSG, dude, it rocks. Start with the miniseries and see if you like it.
I was trying to think of a spell that would ruin Espy's theory of magic and death and I couldn't. I'm going to keep thinking, but it seems like a plausible explanation for now!
81: This may have been discussed in the GoF reread, but that has always been a point of interest for fans. Did JKR ever address it? I can't remember. We know Voldy has his original wand in GoF so one does wonder how he managed to get it. The only explanation I can think of is that for some reason wizard-kind left it lying around in the house and Wormtail went back for it between PoA and GoF. This is incredibly stupid, the wand definitely should have been destroyed, but this would have fallen to the ministry, who, it seems, were all certain that Voldy was gone for good. (Sidenote: DD was never at the scene jjwilson, Hagrid and Sirius were and I don't see either one of them thinking about the wand, Hagrid had an assignment and Sirius was distraught.)
1. I don't know what my problem is, I did it for Will and Won't in HBP and for this chapter but whenever I see the word "will" in the chapter heading I think of the more abstract version of will, that intangible thing that allows us to exert ourselves and our desires, will-power, not a piece of paper.
2. I think its extra-special that the watch Harry gets was previously owned by a member of the Order who died for the cause.
3. Weird to think about Harry needing to shave.
4. Ron crackes me up. It's too bad he gets so annoying later!
5. Scrimgeour is a jerk.
6. Why did DD leave Harry the sword? I mean, I know it's one of the few items that could take down a Horcrux and all, but he must have known that the Ministry would never actually let him have it! So, did he simply put that in his will to remind Harry of its existance, make him think about it and hope that he'd sort it out? This is a lot of faith put in Harry, I mean he generally sorts things out eventually, but it tends to take forever! It would have been nice if after the Horcrux conversation or when they were in the boat on the way to the island in the cave he'd said something like "So, once we grab this Horcrux we'll take it back my office and grab Gryffindor's sword and smash it."
7. On JKR's website she says something about having shot herself in the foot by naming Beedle the Bard's tales before writing them. Apparently it was quite difficult coming up with a story to match up with the title "Babbity Rabbity and his Cackling Stump"!
#83.1 -- Actually, in this chapter, I think it was a play on words. Yes, it's about the piece of paper detailing DD's bequests, but it's also about Harry, Ron, and Hermione's determination to do "Dumbledore's will" in searching for and destroying the horcruxes. "There's a double meaning in that!"
#83.6 -- I think it was just to indicate that the sword could take down a horcrux.
#82: I believe DD does say in book 6 that Nagini was made into a Horcrux after V came back.
83.6: "So, once we grab this Horcrux we'll take it back my office and grab Gryffindor's sword and smash it."
lol, bib! :) I do agree with foggi -- leaving it in the will was to call attention to it.
That's bugging me now, too. It seems a wizard should be able to regrow an ear. This is making me think of Moody's nose, however. He was never able to grow thast back as George couldn't grow back his ear. We can call that a tad of consistency. (After reading bib's post #10, my thoughts are that Moody's damaged nose was caused from a curse wound as well.)
I'm not so sure Harry could have saved Bathilda had he gone to Godric's Hallow that early in the book. He'd probably have had a much better chance at it, though.
Really? That part had me crying during my reading so much!
Well said! I completely agree!
That sounds really interesting and makes me want to read that reference book.
Maybe it's because Snape is the one who invented that spell that he could repair Draco so well, yet that Geoge's (lost) ear could not be treated so well.
I agree, Ron should be able to clean his room using magic. I'm wondering if he's not so good with house cleaning spells, but then he would have learned a lot of them from watching his mother use them at the Black House in OotP. *ponders*
Maybe Dumbledore had a sneaking suspicion that Voldemort would try to access those books, not as Voldemort, but as Tom Riddle. We know Riddle already likely did so as a student, but perhas he would have sought them in his adult life. To me, removing the books is like removing the enemy's weapon: the objects of the books theselves can no longer be of use to the enemy (Voldemort), and while he already read the books, there are times when people need to the actual thing itself to check references.
That does sound a bit strange. We know people are in mourning, and yet, no event is held. Perhaps during this time, having events planned just makes it easier for Death Eaters to attack more people. I'm going to be thinking more about that.
Despite Hermione reaching legal age in book six and her amazing maturity, it's after she makes her parents forget her and sends them away that I see her as an adult.
That does sounds like a quality Hogwarts library books should possess!
Extremely good points!
41 LG (RE: chapter 7)
That's a very good point! I never thought of that. Dumbledore could easily have left Harry his wand in his will. All I can think of is that perhaps he suspected the Ministry would not let Harry have it.
I think they're virgins. I know a lot of people aren't so innocent at that age, but some of us were. Them kissing is one matter, but that is something a bit more. Their relationship was very short in book six plus only while they were at Hogwarts. In book seven, Harry probably has a lot on his mind other than Ginny.
Right! *leads foggi away from her cataloging thoughts* :)
I absolutely agree that Ginny must have been thinking about that.
I agree with foggi. (#48)
I think Harry wouldn't have wanted to snog Ginny just anwhere at the Burrow because there are Weasleys everywhere. It may have made him nervous. I think he would have wanted to seak the privacy of a bedroom even for simply a kiss.
Yours and mine as well. Goodness!
I took it as Molly's being nervous about the wedding.
I could use one of those when the washing machine decides to fail it's dry spinning cycle!
Definitely. My opinion and view of Luna changed greatly in this book. We learned a lot about her!
I had been very sure of that, too.
KIK! So that's where the cheese cake reference is on this thread! ;)
And more cheese cake! I am laughing now. :)
And re your repsonse to #68, I am so asking suge for her opinion on this! Drat that she's at work!
I think that sounds right! :)
Okay, I think I've spent a good hour and a half here, let's see how many posts have come up since I got on this thread. *crosses fingers* ;)
(Edited to correct italics - sorry!)
All of this is rank speculation, of course -- except that we know that Voldy has his wand by GoF.
1. Muriel tells George his ears are lopsided! Is she being mean or senile? Does he have a fake ear?
2. Magic weddings sound pretty fun!
3. Poor Doge.
4. Our way of dividing this book sure has given us some great cliffhangers! (I've since checked next weeks is semi-cliffy and the following not at all!)
I think Dumbeldore and Harry simply didn't care if their nose and glasses didn't look perfect. Plus, for JKR's benefit, it all adds character. :)
83.7 Yes. It would be very hard to come up with a story about a stump that laughs.
85 The thing about making his wand a horcrux is that Dumbledore said something about Voldemort wanting the horcruxes far away from himself. I guess that wasn't all true since he keeps Nagini with him.
87.7 Not to mentions Moody's eye. It obviously was never grown back.
87.20.7 That would make sense. If Snape made the spell, he should know how to counter it.
87.29.5 Yes, Hermione has crossed over to where she is taking care of her parents (by altering their memory and sending them away) instead of the other way around.
87.Last Good work, K. That should up your words per post count!
91.1 Remember, Fred and George's humor isn't always kind, especially to Ron. Aunt Muriel is a relative and maybe has the same sense of humor. So I would pick that she was being mean, but probably thinks she is funny.
RE 87.7 Good one! I forgot about his eye. (Probably because the magical one sounds so amazing...Have you worn yours again yet? Suge tried to get me to wear hers.)
Definitely! A new start for a new month. ;) Just think how many posts I missed posting in June! I'm going to go see the damage now.
Scrimgeour: "Did Dumbledore believe the sword of Gryffindor could defeat the Heir of Slytherin?" (p. 129)
A. How does Scrimgeour know about Voldemort's past? I didn't think anyone but Riddle, Dumbledore and Harry knew of the Riddle-Slytherin connection. I know most people in the wizarding world don't know that Voldy is actually Tom M. Riddle, but do they know he's the Heir of Slytherin?
B. Is this foreshadowing when the sword does, in part, defeat Voldy by killing Nagini (a horcrux) and the locket (another horcrux)?