Deathly Hallows discussion Chapters 9-12
Bara medlemmar i LibraryThing kan skriva.
Denna diskussion är för närvarande "vilande"—det sista inlägget är mer än 90 dagar gammalt. Du kan återstarta det genom att svara på inlägget.
9: A Place to Hide
10: Kreacher's Tale
11: The Bribe
12: Magic is Might
Take it away Ern!
1. Hermione is awesome and magic is very handy.
2. Hermione says she's never done a memory charm, so how did she modify her parents' memories?
3. This read through I find myself paying close attention to who uses the word "Voldemort" and what follows. Does the Trace thingy not work when they're in #12? Because later they keep saying the Death Eaters don't know for sure they're in there, but they keep saying Voldemort. I'm so confused at the rules of which spells trump which.
4. Poor Draco. I really feel bad for him being forced to torture Rowle.
Hermione can do any charm she chooses I think, she is so awesome!
I do not nor will I ever feel sorry for Draco or his parents.
I guess the charm of #12 outweighs voldy's trace
1. I love the idea of Ron & Hermione falling asleep holding hands. I actually remember that more clerarly from my first read than the kiss.
2. The letter & picture are pretty cool. I can just imagine what Harry felt on finding them.
3. The flood of relief on discovering I was correct about R.A.B. I remember quite distinctly. I wasn't right about much else!
4. From reading past posts, I know many of you had figured out the locket, but I totally didn't, I admit it. (Meaning I didn't put two and two together about the locket mentioned in OotP.)
5. Kreacher's story brings tears to my eyes. I would have the same reaction as Hermione if I had been there!
I think R.A.B. was a bone JKR threw us so almost everyone would figure out at least one clue. It was kinda obvious.
eta: count me among the clueless needing that bone, btw!
Mandy's post #5 has me thinking that to modify a memory may not affect as much of the memory as a memory charm does.
I can agree to that. It does sound as though modifying someone's memory would be more difficult.
That sounds very cute.
That was something I had been right about, as well. I'd thoguht of him as soon as I saw his initials in HBP.
I can't read Deathly Hallows now, but I'm going home on Thursday. I'll be able to read DH then and will post on the other threads for the book discussion, hopefully catching up soon. I've decided that I can't take notes for myself except after completing each group of chapters, however, because I really am an extreme note taker and would never catch up if I take them as I read.
I have Espy's comments as well as my own this week. Bib, many of mine are very similar to yours! Here's Chapter 9:
1) (Foggi) Way to go, Hermione! Side-along apparition with two 'passengers,' then the coolness of the beaded handbag. I want one of those! (Espy says she'll make a great little old granny, with a bag like that. Mrs Espy and I thought it was more like Mary Poppins -- but I can see applications as a diaper bag, too!)
2) Ron changes from his robes to his muggle clothes in the alley -- what is he wearing under the robes? Underwear, I guess . . . actually, I probably don't want to know.
3) Espy wonders what kind of spells shatter walls. I think just "stupefy" would do it -- think of all of the stuff they destroyed in the Ministry -- but the Death Eaters are probably using more complex dark magic than that.
4) I'm curious about the defenses put on Grimmauld Place to keep Snape out. The tongue-tying curse -- does it now keep HH&R from telling anyone the location, or would it only work on Snape? What was the simulacrum of Dumbledore supposed to do -- just scare him? Or would it have attacked, if Harry hadn't said that he wasn't Snape? Espy noted that Harry seemed to stumble upon the right thing to say there.
5) Espy wonders, did Harry use a nonverbal spell to shut the curtains in front of Mrs. Black's portrait? Is he getting better at nonverbal spells?
6) Espy also wonders, when Harry has his vision of Voldy making Draco torture the Death Eater -- is this the first time Harry feels sorry for Draco?
11.3 Reducto would. Kind of it's job actually!
11.4 I've wondered that myself. Doesn't really matter though, probably just as well if it ties everyone's tongues that go in there, now that they're all "secret-keepers".
11.5 No telling. JKR doesn't always tell us when a spell is spoken out loud.
11.6 I'm pretty sure he feels some sympathy for him after witnessing the scene on the Lightening Struck Tower. I'd have to double check HBP though.
*note to self: do not post on a Monday morning after a 3-day-weekend of severe sleep deprivation*
#2.2 -- Oh, good observation! I think this might just have been a slip-up on JKR's part.
#2.3 -- Espy and I noticed the same thing, about how often they say "Voldemort." I think I made a note on it in a later chapter (will post those notes in a while). I guess the protective spells on Grimmauld Place hide them from the trace on the name. I wonder if the same spells would hide them from the trace on underage magic?
#7.1 -- Oh, me too! Very sweet.
#7.5 -- Yes. I have now read that part of the book aloud twice, and it does bring tears to my eyes every time.
#10 -- Yes, that's what happened to me with HBP -- I tried to catch up, making notes as I went, and it was incredibly slow going! Good luck!
(Hmmm....is it possible I've been reading too much 19th century English literature?)
Seriously, I know what you mean now, thanks for explaining!
P.S. I know that the spell was put on after Snape went into Number 12, but this was if Snape wanted to return there.
Bib, I think the only other thing I figured out was that Snape as fundamentally good. I remember having heated discussions before the fact declaiming that Harry could not be a horcrux. Duh. (I still don't like it, but that's another story.)
Likewise, I love Hermione's bag. It made me think of mom-bags/purses. (They usually have everything!) My own mother took to calling her purse a Hermione bag after DH was released, though she's never read any of the books.
I hope you get a chance to get some extra Zs soon! It's not fun being exhausted. :(
LATER DH SPOILER
2.3 & #14 :
Maybe there was a purpose for that. JKR could have been trying to make saying his name stand out because of when it becomes no longer safe to.
#14 foggi RE #10:
It's already not safe too say his name, that's how the Death Eaters find them in the cafe. What we're commenting on is the fact that it is apparently okay to say it in #12 Grimmauld Place because the protective enchantments that have been placed on it apparently trump the new "Trace". I hadn't thought about the regular Trace though foggi, you bring up an interesting point. As we have been told previously, the Trace can't differentiate which wizard cast the spell, only that a spell had been cast in their vicinity (which is how Harry got in trouble for Dobby). Does this mean that one of the protective enchantments on Grimmauld Place keeps anyone from knowing magic is taking place there? You'd think if the house was being kept secret, someone in the ministry might wonder at all the magic occuring in a spot where they don't know there are witches and wizards (for even if they knew the Black's address, they're all dead). This leads me to believe that one of the protective enchantments must prevent the detection of their magic, which should probably be illegal.
1) Espy notes that the pages on the floor, and the mention of Bathilda in the letter, are a nice way to keep her at the front of our minds.
2) Espy also wonders if there are wizard Polaroids. :-)
3) What was Snape after, when he searched the house? (This may be explained later, but neither Espy nor I could remember.) We know that he end up taking half a photograph and the last page of a letter -- but why was he there in the first place? Was he looking for the horcrux? I thought he didn't know about those. Was he looking for information on the Order? Why search Sirius' room, then -- when Sirius had been dead for a year?
4) This point is related to point 3, but . . . why re-lock Regulus' room? Snape had obviously searched there, but HH&R had to unlock the door to get in. Did Regulus have a spell on the door so it locked every time it closed?
5) This is where I had the note about how often they say "Voldemort" originally.
6) Okay -- in HBP, we had some discussion about Draco joining the Death Eaters when he was underage. Lupin and the other older Order members kept telling Harry that Voldemort wouldn't have accepted an underage wizard into his ranks, anyway. But here we learn that Regulus was 16 -- underage! -- when he joined Voldemort!
7) Voldemort took Kreacher to the cave to drink the potion so he could put the locket in. Was the basin already there, then? Had he just created it earlier, and then brought the locket soon after, or was the cave/lake/basin setup something older, that Voldy just appropriated for his use? DD seemed to suggest (in HBP) that Voldy had made the whole setup -- but then, why not put the locket in the basin before filling it the first time?
8) Espy says he thinks that giving Kreacher the locket should count as giving him "clothes." I say not -- jewelry is different from clothing. What do you all think?
22.4: I wondered that myself. Not sure why I didn't write it down.
22.6: Would they have known exactly when Reg. joined up? Sirius had runaway by then and I don't think he had much to do with them after that.
22.7: I think Voldemort had the whole set up already. I wonder if he set it up before creating the Horcrux, in preparation for it. It's also mentioned that he wanted to make sure that the potion did what it was supposed to do, which is of course why he brought Kreacher, though, of course if this was his only reason for going the locket could have been there already.
22.8: I agree, jewelry isn't clothes.
Opps, sorry! I really ought to reread first. :)
Silencio, K! ;)
2.2 You are right! I wonder if JKR ever has anyone proofread the novels that actually tell her when something needs fixing.
2.3 I was assuming the Deatheaters new for sure someone was in there and the three were just guessing that they were guessing.
3.1 The speaking trace was on right away, that is how the Deatheaters found them at that diner.
7.2 I found it interesting that Harry and his mom made their "g"'s the same way. My mom's writing is just like my grandmother's even though they went to different schools.
8 I got caught up in the tennis, too. Completely forgot to read until after the men's final. I never really had time to take notes, either. Sorry Bib.
11.1 Imagine when she is a granny and she goes to hit someone with that bag!
11.5 Also, if it was so easy to shut up Mrs. Black, why didn't members of the Order use that spell back in OotP?
22.8 I keep going back and forth on this. You do wear jewelry, but is it really clothing?
1. I love that Harry does better than Hermione on Lupin's arrival.
2. Impressive of Scrimgeour. I still don't like him, but at least he died protecting Harry.
3. I like what Harry said to Lupin and I do think that "if it makes him go back to Tonks, it's worth it." Harry was perfectly justified in viewing it the way he does and I think Lupin needed to hear what Harry said.
4. The Muggleborn registration commission is terrifying not the least because it is based on history.
5. I like that they call him Remus. It shows that they are adults. I remember that when my friends started turning 18, my mom started insisting that they call her by her first name. (She would have before actually, but the culture of our town went against that inclination).
6. Wonder what they're going to do about Dung as he wasn't in OotP (movie).
7. Kreacher is my favorite house-elf.
Why is chapter 11 called The Bribe?
28.7 Kreacher is definitely the best house elf.
#28.2 -- I had the same thought, though I didn't make note of it.
#29 -- Oh, good point -- that chapter title isn't as well-suited to the chapter as it could have been.
1. "Merlin's most baggy Y fronts." KIK! Must remember to use this phrase in conversation!
2. I feel so bad for Kreacher when they leave, knowing what will happen!
3. So Kreacher can hang up cloaks and do laundry...
4. Poor Cattermole! Bad timing Harry!
1) In this chapter, Lupin gets to be King (of Exposition) for the day.
2) Espy wonders if Thicknesse was Imperiused by Voldy, personally, since his is now the puppet Minister of Magic.
3) Espy agrees with Bib -- "Way to tell him, Harry!" I also think that Harry said what Lupin needed to hear, though he was pretty rough about it.
4) Harry starts to read the Skeeter article "thinking it could hardly make him feel any worse" -- yeah, right. Harry really should know better.
33.4 True that!
1) I may have asked this earlier, but I don't remember getting an answer. #12 Grimmauld Place is described as sitting between #11 and #13. Now, in the US, #12 would sit between #10 and #14 -- #s 11 and 13 would be side by side across the street. Is it different in Britain?
2) Espy and I had to chuckle at Ron -- when he and Hermione are not quarreling, he's complimenting her at every turn.
3) I find the Ministry of Magic entrance to be just disgusting. What if some muggle wandered in there and decided to put the, um, facilities to their proper use? (I'm sure there are spells to prevent this, but still!)
I really don't get the DD entrance charm thingy's purpose. Would they really think Snape wouldn't be able to get past it? He's such a brilliant wizard.
Kreacher is the least offensive house elf.
Since Harry, James and Lily are all in the photo, who took it? Bathilda? Pettigrew?
Why is Hermione so worried about going to Godric's Hollow when they've already gone to the two most obvious places (the Burrow & Grimmauld Place) and not been caught?
Why did Voldy go to such elaborate "Bond villian" lengths to hide his horcruxes? Wouldn't that just make them more vulnerable in a way? Why not put them in some random muggle landfill or into the cement in a building's foundation or something? They're nigh indestructable, and apparently as we saw in GoF, they don't need to be there if you ressurect yourself, so why draw attention to them? (to which my husband would say, "it's a book!")
I love when Harry reams out Lupin. He deserves it.
How come the ministry can get through the enchantments at the Burrow, but not at Grimmauld Place?
Why does Lupin offer to "provide protection?" In PoA, he practically killed them all; couldn't distinguish his friends.
More polyjuice potion. Oy.
Wouldn't the people they turn into call in sick once they got home?
I guess that's all. G'night all!
Their camera could have autopic thingy or it could be magic! ;)
Good point about Godric's Hollow. Of course, turns out she was right to be worried and I don't know that Grimmauld Place is any more obvious than Godric's Hollow, but the burrow definitely is.
Voldy hiding his horcruxes: First of all, I think it's important to remember that he didn't go to such lengths for all, or even most of his horcruxes, for the most part he was arrogant enough to assume no one would ever figure it out. I think he protected the locket the way did because it was fun for him to be honest. I imagine part of him hoped someone would stumble across it and go through the torture he planned. This is making me wonder something else though. Does DD say something at the cave about Voldy checking every so often to see if anyone has showed up? or am I confusing that with the vault in SS/PS? If Voldy does go back to check every so often, how often? Apparently he has no idea about Reg having taken it yet. I think the first thing I would have done upon getting a body again (and learning that Malfoy had managed to get one of my Horcruxes destroyed) was go check on the rest of them!
Good question about the ministry. Only thing I can think of is that many of those enchantments had been placed by the Blacks and had been around forever. Here's a question though, Hermione (or someone) says the Ministry will know Harry owns Grimmauld Place now because of the will thing, is the address in the Will? If so, how is that secret-keeping? Can they not read the address because it's not written by DD? Shouldn't they be able to read it once DD dies because it makes Sirius a secret-keeper too? Or can he not be a secret-keeper because he predeceased DD? Or is it that they know about the house and that Harry owns it, but because they weren't told by a secret-keeper they can't see it? Yep, that's it. No need to answer, I talked it out!
I kinda wondered that about Lupin too. It's not as if he can change at will, nor would he be willing to do as Greyback does and place himself somewhere to do harm at the moon. He is a great wizard though, and probably would have been handy to have around. Wonder how the locket might have effected him?
Maybe you don't call in in the wizard world. Or maybe they were hoping to be in and out before word got around that they weren't supposed to be there.
Also, wizards don't have phones, but I guess they could have communicated differently.
As to the secret keeper stuff, it must have broken down when DD died, otherwise they'd still be using it as the HQ of the Order.
Interesting to note, though, that at the beginning of HBP even DD wasn't sure whether the old Black family magic to ensure that the house stayed in the family would be stronger than the secret-keeper magic -- guess the concept is pretty complex, if it confuses even DD! ;-)
1. there were now too many secret-keepers to have a reasonable chance of keeping it quiet
2. one of those secret-keepers was Snape.
What I don't understand, and never have is why they seem to believe that Snape would come to Grimmauld Place before telling the Death Eaters its position. The tongue-tying curse is meant to keep Snape from spilling the beans, but that would only work if he goes inside before telling anyone and if we were evil, why would he go there alone? It makes no sense to me.
I wonder what Snape told Voldemort about why he couldn't reveal the location? Surely Voldy would have asked him about it when the Death Eaters started suspecting that HH&R were hiding there.
Another thing about Snape is his willingness to be "second banana," to be that guy who actually does all the work and gets none of the credit. There are people who seemed to be wired for that and Snape is one.
JKR's psychological insight always impresses.
Hermione's bag is just great, as others have said. She's wonderful.
#17, 18: I still kind of feel like Harry doesn't really count as a Horcrux because he was accidental. Everyone I heard saying Harry was one were saying V had done it on purpose, which makes no sense as V has been trying relentlessly to kill Harry. It helps me feel better to think of it that way.
#19, me too LG. Husband and I both read the same book recently and he liked it more than me because I had it all figured out but the ending surprised him. It always makes me a little sad to have correctly guessed the end. I'd rather be surprised, but it takes a lot to surprise me.
#21, that all sounds good to me! I definitely agree that the taboo on V's name is voided within Grimmauld Place, and having the normal Trace also blocked makes sense or Harry would have been in more trouble in book 5 while he was staying there and adults were doing magic all around him.
#22.7 V was perhaps testing the whole system. To make sure the potion was functioning and that the Inferi would come up to get the one who drank the water. Bib, good point that he had set up the cave and made the Horcrux after the cave was already secured.
22.8, jewelry definitely isn't clothing. You can't go outside wearing naught but your bracelet.
Great thoughts on Snape's personality. I love that he is willing to do the work without the credit and that he is able to suffer others being judgmental without explaining himself or making himself look better. What an outstanding character JKR made!!
My thoughts in no order:
1. Kreacher's story is one of my favorite parts of the series. I love learning that past story.
2. When Harry wakes up and sees that Ron and Hermione probably fell asleep holding hands, it says it made him feel lonely. It made me sad to think of Harry as feeling lonely.
3. RAB and the locket having been in OotP are pretty much the only things I had predicted correctly. Which is fine by me -- after all, the best kind of prize is a surprise! ;)
4. I love seeing the change in Kreacher that just a bit of thoughtfulness brings about.
5. Too much Polyjuice with the trip into the ministry!
Whoo! I got way overexcited, hit tab when I meant to turn off my Caps Lock and then for a reason known only to my right thumb, hit the spacebar twice, thus double posting.
Anyway, I meant to say, I had been wondering where you were and was happy to see your post.
61.17/18 -- I agree! Accidental horcrux is very different from intentional horcrux.
61.22.8 -- Nor can you go outside wearing naught but your socks . . . ;-) I agree with you, though.
61.2 -- Yes, me too. For most of this book, whether he's conscious of it or not, Harry is convinced that he's going to die. He can't see any future for himself beyond completing what he's set out to do. It reminds me a little bit of Frodo and Sam in the last stages of their journey through Mordor, how it didn't matter that they didn't have enough food for the return journey, because they didn't think there would be one. Harry can see a future for Ron and Hermione, he can see a future for Ginny -- but his future, as he says, is entirely taken up with destroying Voldemort. (In both cases, I'm glad they were wrong!)
61.4 -- Amazing, isn't it? And Hermione seems to be maturing in her perceptions of house-elves -- note how she occasionally explains Kreacher to Harry. While she still thinks that their subjugation is bad, she's learning that she can't just go freeing them all willy-nilly, without letting them have a say in how it's done.
/today's horcrux rant
If it were something that often happens spontaneously, then you'd have lots of immortal murderer wizards running around.
/ok really done with today's rant
Hmm, you can't go out in just socks... No wonder the neighbors have been staring.
I'm still not thrilled about the Harry-Horcrux thing, but I'm willing to accept it. (Will LG take the bait and continue the rant?)
Really, there are loads and loads of things to be picky about when we have 7 books full of magical matter of varying degrees of complexity and strength. I can't fathom any other author having better rules than JKR has, nor do I think JKR violated her rules. Made some vague ones, sure; slipped up in minor points, sometimes. But really, what a fantastic series this is and what fun we've all had with them and will continue to have (as evidenced by these discussions!). What I'm trying to say is that I choose not to be super picky because I enjoy the books as they are, perhaps exactly because they are like this. Leaves plenty open to interpretation and discussion. If all the finer points were clear-cut, much of the debate-ability of the books would be taken away.
I'm sure I could have said that in fewer words, but I guess I have to make up for lost posting opportunities!
I think that Harry is "the unintentional Horcrux." From what DD says, whenever a wizard kills someone their soul tears. A Horcrux, then, is the continuation of that tearing and attaching it to something else. The reason that Voldy's soul fragment tore and turned Harry into an accidental Horcrux was the fact that he had done it so many times. If you take a piece of paper and haphazardly tear it a couple of times a piece may fly off of it's own accord, whether you mean for it to or not. I think this is what JK meant when she talked about the mistake of turning Harry into a Horcrux.
Just an observation about magic in the Harry Potter world: Most spells seem to not be that difficult. You have the complicated rituals and potion-making, but the only component that is needed for most spells is determination.
Voldy's rebirth was a ritual and a potion. Tearing the soul feels more like a spell... Now let the flaming begin as I can't seem to let this topic die...
Then Foggi made me realize that the reader would be too plastered to read after they got to Grimmauld Place.
I agree with lefty that I really love the books and JKR's world, but I'm not trying to be "picky," I just love thinking about these things. Some of it makes more sense to me than other parts, and I enjoy discussing it from all angles.
whadya think? huh? Am I brilliant or what?
Now I know there are some holes in this theory such as how infested the house had become by the time Harry and co. were cleaning it out. But we also have the fact that it was a dark-wizard household with a mad painting ordering a confused and distraught house elf to do stuff. Just some thoughts...
I just noticed that Ron knew the entrance to the MoM from his childhood via his father. If I remeber correctly, in Order of the Phoenix Harry asks if anybody knows a way into the MoM, other than the visitor's entrance. If Ron knew the actual entrance, why didn't he say something? Is this a boo-boo on Jo's behalf?