Deathly Hallows discussion Chapters 21-24
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21: The Tale of the Three Brothers
22: The Deathly Hallows
23: Malfoy Manor
24: The Wandmaker
I'll be back later with my notes.
1. Mmm ... Gurdyroot
2. Apparently Harry never read The Book Thief not to believe a story where Death talks.
3. I love the Tale of the Three Brothers. I like that it is so like our Muggle fairy tales -- two older, unwise siblings and one virtuous youngest sibling in a tale based on some truth turned into a morality lesson.
4. Hermione's reaction to Xeno's belief is just so Hermione.
5. Xeno's description of the true Invisibility Cloak followed by "How many cloaks have you seen like that" is perfect. By the time he asks it, you, like the trio, are saying "But Harry's is like that!"
6. "You could claim anything's real if the only basis for believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist!" Hermione must've momentarily forgotten to whom she was speaking.
7. Another wonderful demonstration of characterization when HR&H each choose a different Hallows.
Hermione: the "right" answer
Ron: the one to give him recognition
Harry: the one to give him his lost family
8. I enjoyed the trip into Luna's room. She is such a sweet girl!
1. Maybe it's because I just read The Book Thief, but Ron's line about Death running at people flapping his arms is hilarious!
2. "you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist!" I love that line!
3. Luna's ceiling. 'Nuff said.
4. I do feel bad for Xeno, I'd probably do the same thing if I were him. (BTW: We haven't commented on how awesomely perfect his name is!)
5. Hermione's so great in a crisis!
In this chapter, I was able to connect with Harry through the physical labor thing. Harry dug Dobby's grave, which kept the pain in his scar at bay; whenever I'm grumpy, I go run for lift wights. I think the whole physical labor thing helps me (and others) to relax. Anyone else do something similar in these situations?
- Ron's line about Death ("Sometimes he gets bored of running at them, flapping his arms and shrieking . . .") always makes me laugh.
- Hermione, talking about wands: "Some wizards just like to boast that theirs are bigger and better than other people's" -- even I (and, though you may not believe it, I'm generally considered by my friends to be pretty clean-minded) see the dirty joke here. Moving right along . . .
- The description of Luna's ceiling is one of the more touching parts of the book, in my opinion.
- I like that Hermione got to be the quick-thinking one yet again. This is the second last-minute escape she's engineered in the last few chapters -- I think she's getting better at it! ;-)
1. Here's where Hermione shows she didn't learn much since HBP when Harry was (mostly) right about what was going on.
2. I love the code names, but most of them would be pretty easy to figure out I would think, I mean, who else could Romulus be?
3. Potterwatch is one of my favorite things. It's another one of those moments, like the conversation by the river, where we get to find out what's going on in the bigger picture. (I think this could be an interesting book or short story come to think of it, what was everyone else up to during this time? Maybe a book of Potterwatch transcripts or something.)
4. If the enchantments are broken, why can't they disapparate/ They'd have to leave a lot behind, sure, but Hermione had time to jinx Harry, couldn't they have used that time to escape? Of course, this would ruin the rest of the story, so I'm glad they didn't, I'm just wondering.
Luna's room was cry-worthy and again emphasized the fact that Harry needs friends.
Ron's comments about death were lol-able.
- Hermione: "I'd feel so sorry for Xenophilius if--" I love how Ron finishes her sentence, giving it a completely different ending than the one she'd intended!
- Again (because this bugs me) . . . This: does not look like a "coat of arms." Not remotely. (Okay, I'm done harping on that point.)
- Now I'm a bit confused about Dumbledore's intentions. (I'm not at my best today; my brain is a bit muddled.) By leaving Hermione the book, he obviously intended for them to find out about the Hallows. However, I thought the destruction of the Horcruxes was of foremost importance. Does he explain later what he wanted them to do in regards to the Hallows? (I'm resisting the urge to skip forward every time I have a question that I think will be answered in a later chapter.)
- Hermione finally says what I've been saying Harry needed to realize all along: "Harry, this isn't a game, this isn't practice! This is the real thing . . ."
- Why has Harry's VoldyCam gone fuzzy? Again, this is probably answered later.
- Potterwatch is so cool! I love those guys! Like Bib, I thought the nicknames were a bit of a giveaway, but I think they were more of a fun gimmick than actual protection against being identified.
- Lupin says that Harry's instincts are "nearly always right" -- while I applaud the sentiments, and am glad to hear that Lupin is doing the right thing, I had to think a bit about Harry's instincts, and some of the trouble they've gotten him into. ;-)
- The "faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo" line always makes me laugh! It's the last funny thing for a while -- we're really heading into the thick of the action.
6.4 -- good point! I didn't even think to wonder why they didn't apparate away as soon as they knew their cover was blown.
I also agree with 06, there was a lot of Luna character developement. I loved that about the whole scene when they're in the Lovegood's house.
8.5: I'm not sure if it's answered or not, I was thinking it was because Harry was so wrapped up in the Hallows.
8.7: I'd say in the last couple of years though, Harry's instincts have been getting better and better.
21 — The Tale of the three brothers.
i—I've read on from here so many times. I don't know why but this section really pulls me into the story. I think there wasn't enough going on before now for the books acing, but after the Hallows get added into the mix the pacing feels right.
ii—Mr. Lovegood says he has a copy of the story somewhere among the parchment he has laying around, but if he's truly a seeker wouldn't have it memorized? He also looks at Hermione sharply when she produces her copy. Do you think this was just a ploy to keep harry in the house because he would have to find the copy of the story first? Side note: Hermione does an excellent job of translating this since the copy is written in runes (or was it Gabblydigook?).
iii—Great snarky comment, Harry. "Yeah, because we all need a bit more fear in our lives."
iii—"You could claim that anything's real if the only basis for believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist." And that's the rub of things, Hermione.
iv—Luna's mural makes me both incredibly happy and incredibly sad at the same time. Her friends really do mean so much to her because everyone has always thought she was just a little weird. I'd hate to have sent my young life without great friends.
i—Actually Harry is not too far off. One of the things that truly let him get the best of Voldy was the fact hat he was master of all three of the Hallows.
ii—Hermione is maddening here with her insistence that the Hallows couldn't exist. It's magic, Hermione. And hanging with Harry these years you have to admit that you've seen plenty of things that defied explanation, prophecies for example. For a witch that is very skilled with magic, she's not very eager to accept the unknown.
i—Apparently fear is an emotion that can be used to block Harry connection to Voldy. But wouldn't that make occlumency easy since most are terrified by Voldy?
ii—Draco, courageous or just scared here? Is he deliberately not identifying Harry?
iii—I think the Wormtail thing is a terrible cop-out. I always expected him to die saving Harry, but this isn't right. I wanted redemption for Wormtail, not just punishment. I think JK could have done better with this. But I guess it's like real life. People who do bad things reap the punishments they've sown, sometimes without even the chance of retribution...
I'll be back with more after I finish the chapter and crying my eyes out over Dobby's funeral.
i-I don't think fear blocks Harry's connection, it's a motivator to block the connection more than anything I think.
ii-Draco, IMO, is being very cinical. Keeping them from being tortured and killed on the spot only because he might be the one having to do it.
iii-I'd actually have to agree w/JK on this. Wormtail got what he deserved. He killed Lily and James and would've killed Harry without a second thought. He almost killed Harry, Ron and Hermione in the third book too, so he got justice in the end. It was just a little cheesy though, that the hand would rebound on itself. Though it makes perfect sense if you look at it metaphorically.
I think Draco is just too scared to give Harry away. He's afraid to be a DE and he's afraid to stand up to them as well. He's a coward through & through.
There's a bit that doesn't make sense: when they get to Shell Cottage Bill says "the Weasley's are at Minerva's, there's a Fidelius charm, Dad is the secret keeper" WHAT? I though the whole point of secret keepers were that no one else could tell where they were. Total contradiction, practically in the same sentence!
Anyway, just a comment. Sorry for the interruption. Back to your discussion. Just ignore me.
2.7 I thought their choices was a good illustration of each character.
2.8 I liked seeing Luna's room, but it made me sad for her. She has had so little friendship in her life.
3.4 Bib, Yes, Luna is all he has, how could he not turn them in.
3.5 How great of her not to only make sure the Death Eaters see Harry, but to make sure they don't see Ron.
5.2 Foggi, I saw the dirty joke there, too :)
6.3 Bib, I loved Potterwatch, too. It is so good of those guys to keep everyone's spirits up during such dark times.
6.4 You are right, they should have just disapperated, but I felt that this is where they finally got going. No more endless camping!
8.2 Foggi, I also don't think that symbol looks anything like an eye, which it is sometimes described as.
8.3 At first I thought maybe because Voldemort was going after the Hallows, but he only know about the Elder Wand.
8.8 Poor Snape, being pick on and misunderstood again!
13.i Espy, I did feel the pace pick up here, but I didn't feel we were really moving until we got to Malfoy Manor.
14.ii Espy, Careful, you are starting to sound like Trelawney when she talks about Hermione.
15.ii Espy, I think Draco is pulling a Regalus here. He has realized he is on the wrong side, doesn't like it, and doesn't see a way out.
15.iii I thought the Wormtail death was kind of a letdown, too. She could have done much better.
1. Hermione really is a genius, what with hiding Ron and letting Harry be seen as they escape.
2. Perhaps Harry's greatest shortcoming: Becoming easily obsessed. The door in book 5, tailing Malfoy in book 6. And now the Hallows.
3. I was glad Lupin hadn't turned completely senseless. He seems to be a completely different person from the Lupin we met in book 3. And I'm not sure his changes are well-founded. Of course, I always thought his relationship with Tonks felt less like JKR's idea and more like a fanfic idea.
4. It was really good to have news and a reminder that others were on Harry's side!
5. Stupid Harry! Saying the name
#8 Foggi, I think bib has it right in post 10, that DD wanted the gang to know about the Hallows, but not to get sidetracked from the Horcruxes. DD himself was tempted by the Hallows, and he wanted Harry to know about them but not be sucked in and try to master death, since Harry did in fact have to die. Or something like that.
Re: Hermione has always been a bit narrow-minded. Like foggi said, she likes things to follow rules that make sense.
#17 Espy, I think so. It would probably make him down a soul piece, but I think he'd be able to come back via a Horcrux. (Of course, Dementors are on Voldy's side, so they aren't likely to kiss him anyway).
- Again with the albino peacocks. I was so sure they were significant!
- I find Ron trying to protect Hermione in this chapter very poignant.
- The torture episode has the potential to be a spectacular scene for Emma and Helena. It's painful to read; in a visual medium, it could be the stuff of nightmares.
- As for Pettigrew's death, I thought it fitting that the hand would betray him, but I wanted more, somehow. I do see the point made above, that it was a clumsy way of dealing with it, and I tend to agree.
- Of all the deaths in the book, Dobby's was the most unlikely. The people who were laying odds on which characters would die set Dobby's pretty high against. Poor Dobby!
Are you saying that Wormtail had to take Voldy there? Not just say, "they're in Godric's Hollow?" Because that's not what I was getting in all of this Fidelius stuff at all.
In any case, it's confusing.
1. Stupid white peacock/red herring.
2. I don't know why he did it, but Draco's reluctance to identify Harry was certainly helpful to a point. (That was the note, now I've read what other people have said on this and think I'm going to reserve judgement until the fire in Hogwarts.)
3. Ron trying to protect Hermione, so sweet!
4. I really thought the Wormtail thing would be bigger. (Again, I've seen what others have said. I was mostly disappointed that Wormtail's role was so small. Part of me wonders if, when writing PoA Jo had something more planned for Wormtail (what Cissy does in the forest perhaps?) and then changed her mind but knew she still had to reference the life debt so threw this in. That's how it feels to me anyway.)
5. Dobby. :`(
I have stuff about the fidelius charm in my chapter 24 notes. I'll post them in a bit.
1. I wonder if Harry's fear for the others' safety that helps make it easier to shut out Voldemort here. Kind of an extension of the love principle? It would seem strange that just plain fear would keep V out.
2. I agree with Compski (22) here -- Draco doesn't really want to be part of the Death Eaters after all, but can't just back out. I appreciated his reluctance to identify the trio, even if it was just to enact the oldest and noblest of Slytherin traditions -- to save his own skin.
3. Like foggi said, Hermione's torture could be really horrible to see on screen. It was pretty brutal to read. Good Hermione though, not to give anything away, saying the sword is fake.
4. Could Voldy have fashioned the hand to kill Wormtail should he ever feel mercy, or something? The first time I read this, I thought that it killed Wormtail because it didn't allow for mercy. Or perhaps there was something else on tap that was changed, and this is what we have instead. How wonderful of Harry and Ron to try to save Wormy anyway.
5. I was surprised by Dobby's death. Poor free elf.
#29.4 -- That was my reading, as well -- that Voldy had made the hand so that if Wormtail showed mercy or pity (any of the things that Voldy sees as weakness) that it would turn on him.
#30 -- Yeah, I wanted his role to be bigger, too. It did seem like Wormtail was surprised at himself for letting go -- but more surprised when the hand turned on him.
1. Harry thinks it's grief that is keeping the Voldycam at bay though he knows DD would say it was love. How alike are grief and love? Can you have one without the other?
2. I find it an appropriate show of respect to bury Dobby without magic.
3. When they start putting clothes on Dobby, I lose it. Also with "Here lies Dobby, A Free Elf." *sniffle*
4. Okay, so how come Bill can tell them where the rest of the Weasley's are if he's not Secret-Keeper? (I know LG had said this, I wanted her to see that I wondered the same thing. #24: No one mentions to Harry where the Order Headquarters are until they get there and then it is the piece of paper that DD specifically wrote for Harry that allows him to see No. 12. It seems to me that Bill being able to say "They're staying at Aunt Muriel's" is contrary to the Fidelius Charm. I'm sure the ministry has a listing of the addresses of all known witches and wizards and Auntie Muriel is definitely known. If Bill can say "They're at Aunt Muriel's" what is then to stop anyone from looking up her address? Even if they then can't see the house or get into it, they have a pretty good idea of where it is and can pull what they did earlier in the book at Grimmauld Place, which, with that many people crammed into one building is bound to go badly at some point. I agree with LG, Jo contradicted herself badly.)
5. Bill and Fleur are both great in their own ways, who would have expected Fleur to be so motherly and have all the necessary healing knowledge?
6. I really enjoyed seeing Harry so authoritative, all part of the Hero's journey.
7. I think I'm going to be finding it harder and harder to stop reading now. At least next week I'll have Breaking Dawn to turn to!
Up until he saved them and died, Dobby always bugged me. Despite this, I sobbed when he died an during the burial, even on my second read. This makes me realize how hard the rest of the book is going to be. Making breaking it up will be good.
In the same way, Ron, Harry, and Hermione know where the Weasleys are hiding now, but they are unable to get there. Information and the ability to use it are two different things.
I'm not going to respond to any more posts on this subject because I am getting too caught up in trying to get everyone to agree with me. I perceive the fidelus charm to work the way I set forth, and the only thing that can come of arguing my theory is hurt feelings. Please respect that this is the theory I believe even if it's not the one you do and I will do likewise.
Have you all turned into Hermione? Broaden your minds! ;)
I wouldn't further the discussion if i didn't think the idea was intriguing.
And lefty, you called us Hermiones as if that's a bad thing. ;-) I know you think I'm too hard on JKR, but you know I love her!
LG, to be honest, I am a bit Hermione-ish myself in several respects, so I can't consider it to be too bad a thing! I was going to use the quote "Broaden your minds; have another beer -- have two!" but then I thought I may be the only one who has seen The Man from Snowy River and no one would get it.
I love Luna's mural
I love Hermione's escape, the first time through I was thinking to myself "they have to see Harry so xeno is safish"
I love that after they are safe Hermione says something like "I told him it was a blahblah horn"
I love the radio
I love how excited Harry gets
I hate that they get captured
I love that in the cellar Luna is still well...Luna.
I love Dobby dropping the chadalier
I hate when Dobby dies and I cried and cried and am crying again
I love that the clothe Dobby and that Luna closes his eyes and says "there now he could be sleeping" or something like that.
I love love love the grave marker Harry makes.
I love that Harry finally figures out to go for Horocruxes first.
Harry really taking charge I love when he does that.
Ok that's it.
The conversation with Griphook and the trio (talking about goblins being beneath wizards) reminds me how much I hate that throughout human history, this type of person is made out to be better than this other person. You'd think after hundreds of years we'd have figured out that people are people, Muggle or magical, whatever race, whatever background. I suppose it's just because someone thinks they can have power and glory by stepping on others.
Sorry, I think I'm feeling like I don't believe in the human race right now. My sister works at a restaurant and she was telling me that the other day a customer came in with his son, ordered and ate over $30 worth of food, gave her a gift card and a $10 saying to keep the change, and then when my sister ran the gift card it was empty and the guy had already left. And last week a coworker (she doesn't know who) stole money out of the little black folder where the customer had put the money to pay for both the meal and tip.
Okay, no more ranting. I'll go watch Spiderman to make myself feel better.
Mandy, seeing Harry regain focus to go after Horcruxes, even while he's watching the Voldycam to see that Voldy is going after the wand at that moment, is one of the strongest parts of this book. Harry can be so driven, both a good and bad thing, as evidenced the past couple chapters!
1) It's interesting that Harry mentally compares Dobby's death to DD's -- I thought it was pretty similar to Cedric's, too. Guess DD's was more recent.
2) It's fitting that they not use magic to dig Dobby's grave.
3) I'm intrigued by an earlier comment about the connection between grief and love. I don't think you can have the type of grief that Harry was experiencing here without love.
4) The first time I read this, I started crying when Ron gave Dobby his socks. Socks!
5) I almost hate to add another tangle to the Fidelius question -- but here it is: Bill says he's Secret-Keeper for Shell Cottage. If that's so, how did they manage to apparate there? Had Dobby been there before, or did Bill somehow tell him the location earlier? Or did they only apparate near the cottage, and then Bill came out and gave them permission to enter? *sigh* It's confusing.
6) The vault is always described as belonging to Bellatrix "and her husband" -- does Rodolphus LeStrange ever do anything significant? Why even have that character -- it's obvious Bellatrix is obsessed with Voldy in every possible way -- why even bother having her be married to some boring DE type?
7) I noticed that Voldy thought that it wouldn't do for Snape to see where he was going -- not because Snape isn't one of his most trusted, but because, when it all comes down, Voldy doesn't trust anyone.
(Edited to fix typos.)
Which reminds me, how does apparition work? It doesn't seem that the person actually has to have seen the place that they're going to since HR&H apparate to different woods all over the country that I doubt that they've been to.
45.5:Okay, I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the Weasleys all went into hiding and the Fidelius Charms were put into place after they all arrived at Shell Cottage because the Death Eaters now knew that Ron was with Harry. I believe all the hiding and the Fidelius Charms were put in place while Harry was digging the grave.