Deathly Hallows chapters 29-32 discussion
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29: The Lost Diadem
30: The Sacking of Severus Snape
31: The Battle of Hogwarts
32: The Elder Wand
Ready for some discussion, everyone? Here we go!
1) Okay, they never do go into detail about how the portrait/tunnel works, and it still bugs me. I can buy having a secret passage hidden somehow behind the portrait (in the same way that the entrance to the Gryffindor common room is behind the portrait), but I can't buy the fact that, for this one portrait, real people can go into the portrait alongside the painted figures. It doesn't work for me.
2) Neville's Gran rocks! I wouldn't want to be the Death Eater sent to "take care" of her!
3) I wish there'd been at least one Slytherin in the DA. I know Draco would make life difficult for them -- but I still think there could have been one person who would stand up to Draco and his goons.
4) This chapter gives me warm-fuzzies, when people start showing up in the RoR, and the DA and the Order of the Phoenix start to work together.
5) Jealous, Ginny? ;-)
6) I am such a Ravenclaw! That door knocker is great!
7) Here's the return of my other red herring: Ravenclaw's diadem is described as being "not unlike the tiara Fleur wore at her wedding."
1. According to Neville, the Carrows make Umbridge “look tame.” What a quick way to sum up how awful they are!
2. Notice Crabbe and Goyle love doing the Cruciatus curse, but Neville doesn’t mention Draco.
3. I love Neville’s Gran. Put Dawlish in the hospital and wrote the note encouraging Neville.
4. I can’t wait to see the room of requirement in the movie, and then to have all the characters there together!
5. “A circle has no beginning.” That is the answer to the riddle? I guess it makes sense after you hear it, but it is kind of pulled out of thin air.
2.7 Very tricky of JKR. I wonder if the real diadem was goblin made, because she always emphasizes that Aunt Muriel's tiara is.
This isn't really a complete answer, but I've always imagined the portrait being a pane of glass that was painted upon. This still doesn't explain why students can interact with Adrianna, but it could explain how you could see students coming. and my response to the second floor thing is "magic" ;P.
#3.2 I don't think Draco was at Hogwarts during that semeser since he was a Death Eater. That's why Crabbe (or is it Goyle?) is such a dark magic snob to him. So Draco wouldn't have been doing the Cruciatus curse to anyone at Hogwarts.
I sill need to read. I've been putting it off because I have too many books to read.
Tell me he figured no one would find it in all the mess, but don't tell me he thought he was the only one. Jeeze....
Why not just put it in the Chamber of Secrets? At the time he created the horcrux, he would have known that no one had figured out that one, especially since it required Parseltongue to access.
1- I wonder what kind of punishment the Carrows executed on the students.
2- I love how there's a question to answer to get into Ravenclaw tower.
1- I love how Fleur asks how Teddy is in a very casual voice.
1- That was very smart of Ron to think of the Chamber of Secrets!
2- I wish the house-elves were out fighting!
3- Why did Crabbe die?
4- Why oh why did Fred have to die?
1- What's that protective charm Voldemort put around Nagini?
2- What was that silvery blue liquid coming out of Snape's mouth?
3- Even though I usually hate Snape, I did feel pretty bad when he died.
1. “Oh, look. They’re pleased!” Luna says. It sounds like she is watching animals out in their natural habitat.
2. Harry uses another unforgivable curse on Amycus, and then McGonagall uses one!
3. Snape and McGonagall’s duel is a lot like when Aladdin and Jafar battled: fire, snake, daggers, one thing turning into another.
4. I always picture the window having a Snape shaped hole in it, just like the old Looney Toons cartoons.
5. No one has seen the diadem “in living memory.” Hmmm.
6. I love at the awkward moment of Percy’s arrival that Fleur tries to break the tension by asking about Teddy.
7. I am so glad Percy redeemed himself with his family. This reunion is one of my favorite parts.
1) I always think the title of this chapter is a little inaccurate, or at least misleading.
2) Go, Luna! But she says she'd never Stunned anyone except in DA lessons -- did she not stun people at the battle at the Ministry?
3) "Potter belongs in my House" -- I love the note of pride in McGonagall's voice!
4) When Harry Crucio'd Amycus for spitting at McG, my first though was "Their daring, nerve, and chivalry set Gryffindors apart." Chivalry, indeed!
5) " 'It is I,' said a low voice" -- SEV! Finally!
6) The fight between Snape and McG is much more what I think of as a "real" wizard's duel, and has potential to be fun on film, too. Can't you just see Alan Rickman and Maggie Smith in this scene?
7) I thought the "Snape-shaped hole" was too cartoonish. As Compski said, it brings to mind Looney Toons.
8) The statues are so cool.
9) And we have the return of Percy, the ex-prat. I thought he would be a goner in the upcoming fight.
3.1 -- It is a concise way to establish their characters. I wonder if they borrowed her special pens!
3.5 -- I like the answers to the riddles, but can't imagine coming up with them on my own. If I were a Ravenclaw, I'm guessing I'd spend a lot of time sitting outside of the common room, waiting for someone to come along and help me with the answer!
4.2.7 -- I always kind of assume that any treasure mentioned is goblin-made, though I guess there's no real evidence for that.
5.3.2 -- Yes, I'll buy that Draco wasn't at school for a lot of the time -- but then how did he manage to be there for the big fight?
6 -- I have basically the same note -- when I get around to entering notes for that chapter, I'll include it. I agree, it's uncharacteristically stupid for Voldemort not to wonder where all of the other stuff came from.
7.31.3 -- Crabbe lost control of his enchantment. Besides (I think I have a note on this about that chapter also), he was turning out to be the nastiest of a nasty bunch.
7.32.1 -- I just figured it was some variation of a Shield Charm.
7.31.2 -- You mean his memories? I think he made a conscious effort to "release" his memories as he died, so that Harry could have the whole story. More (much more) about Snape's death when I write my notes for that chapter!
9.1 -- Yes, I love that! To Luna, her fellow students must seem at times like a different species!
9.2 -- Yes, the Unforgivables fly thick and fast in this book. I think it's because that ruling was set by the Ministry, and the Ministry has fallen. In short, desperate times call for desperate measures.
9.7 -- Yes, I'm glad of the reunion, and glad that Fred was the one to first extend his hand to Percy. But it did make me think that Percy would die in some heroic fashion, perhaps saving one of the members of his family.
And another thing, if Voldy didn't tell Draco about it himself, he would have known that at least Draco has accessed the exact room of the ROR after HBP, since that is how all the DEers got in.
I'll put in the rest of my own notes later this evening.
1) I love the illustration at the beginning of the chapter in the American edition.
2) Wow -- we get backstory for the Gray Lady and the Bloody Baron. I can't imagine haunting the same place together forever under those circumstances, especially considering that she's obviously still angry with him.
3) I love that there were piles of basilisk fangs! It's more over-the-top humor, but I liked it.
4) Tonks, why, why, why did you come? :-(
5) The Kiss: "Is this the moment?" Yes, yes it is!
6) Where did Voldy think all of the other stuff in the Room of Requirement came from? The only way I can buy that he thought he was the only one ever to find it was if it was an empty room when he "hid" the diadem there -- but that obviously wasn't the case; generations of students and house-elves had been hiding things there. Basically, hiding the diadem there is the equivalent of hiding it in the Hogwarts garbage dump. All in all, the Chamber of Secrets would have been a much smarter place for it. However, my guess is that the RoR wasn't the place Voldy meant to hide the Diadem -- he probably meant to go back later and re-hide it, but never got the chance. Besides, he apparently intended (with the diary and all) for the Chamber to re-open, at which point the diadem might have been found. I do agree, this was not well-handled.
7) So, in the end Crabbe proved to be the nastiest of the three -- throwing around Avada Kedavras, setting off Fiendfyre, etc. Goyle was merely stupid.
8) Fred -- no! No! Aw, darn. I knew a Weasley had to die in this book -- there were too many of them for all of them to make it through safely. However, my money was on Charlie (the one with the least character development) or Bill, or, as I've said before, Percy. Poor Fred!
Welcome to the discussion, by the way!
1. How awesome that all the other tables stand up to defend Harry against the Slytherins
2. JKR wraps up a lot of loose ends with the Grey Lady’s story: who she is, the Baron, the diadem, why V. goes to Romania.
3. Nice entrance for Hagrid!
4. JKR works in so much in this chapter. It is like everyone gets their chance. We even get the sarcasm of the staff room gargoyles and Sir Cadogan cheering Harry on.
5. Students have been hiding things in the Room of Requirement “for centuries.” How did Voldemort think he was the only one who could find it when it had all that stuff in there?
6. That works out well that both Ron and Hermione got to destroy a horcrux (and eventually Neville). I love how she gushes about Ron and their adventure to the Chamber.
7. Ron mentioning the house elves and Hermione’s reaction. Need I say more? Oh, Harry’s reaction was pretty good, too.
8. What an idiot Crabbe is. Which one is he in the movies?
9. Fred’s death is so devastating, but I like that Percy had really redeemed himself in Fred’s eyes by making a joke.
The Kiss: I think we've discussed this before, but I don't think this was their first kiss. Ron was smart enough to insist that Hermione destroy the cup, and we can assume that it played with her mind a bit during the attempt. I'm sure some stuff played out then, especially since they were all by their lonesome down in the Chamber of Secrets. (They're lucky they came back at all, if you ask me.)
I know someday someone is going to do a "Mists of Avalon" treatment of HP--the whole story from the POV of Hermione and/or Ginny. I sure hope whoever does it recognizes the potential in that particular missing scene.
2.3 Yes!! There definitely should have been a Slytherin or two in the DA. Or at least portrayed more strongly as a good guy. Being Slytherin doesn't mean automatic evil.
2.6/3.5/7.2 Ravenclaw's riddles: I love, love, love the riddles as a password too. Though I'd probably be standing there waiting for help a lot as well. So far as the answer Luna gave, I don't think it's the only answer, it's just one that is logical and would work. It seemed to me that the door would unlock to a right answer, not the right answer.
9.1 “Oh, look. They’re pleased!” Luna says. It sounds like she is watching animals out in their natural habitat. It's great though! :)
10.3 "Potter belongs in my House" -- I love the note of pride in McGonagall's voice! Me too!
22 LG, I actually agree with you on that one. ;)
btw, I agree with everything you said in this post.
1. I love that they are still using Hermione's galleons.
2. Ginny's jealous!
1. "Into nonbeing, which is to say, everything." I don't know why I like this so much.
2. Unforgivable curses: two down, one to go.
3. I love how cavalier McGonagall is about the Carrows.
4. I'm still annoyed at how everyone treats Ginny like she's a child, even Harry.
5. When Percy arrives and Fred shakes his hand I wrote, "I hate you, JKR."
1. I agree with those above who think there should be some "good" Slytherins.
2. I wince when McGonagall mentions Creevey.
3. In centuries, no one but Voldy thought to ask Helena Ravenclaw?
4. Did JKR think of this at the last minute? Why did we never hear anything about Helena Ravenclaw until this book?
5. This is a direct quote from page 623: "He hid it exactly where I hid my old Potions book, where everyone's been hiding stuff for centuries. He thought he was the only one to find it." Contradictory, much? OK, I'm done now.
6. "I virtually lived in the Room of Hidden Things last year." - Draco Malfoy (ok, I'm really done now.)
7. Harry is on a broom by himself. He goes to save Draco & Goyle, but Goyle is too heavy, so Goyle gets on a broom that's already got 2 people on it. Wouldn't Ron & Hermione weight at least as much, if not more than Harry & Draco?
8. Diadem destroyed by Crabbe.
9. At the end of the chapter, I just wrote "so wrong."
Chpt 32 (sob)
1. I love when Ron punches Malfoy while he's under the invisibility cloak.
2. "Are you a wizard, or what?!"
3. Poor Snape just keeps saying the same thing over & over about looking for Harry. He knows he's toast.
4. Stupid villain move: Voldy doesn't check to make sure that Snape is dead. It's the kind of bonehead error a Bond villain would make. (It's also a plot device.)
Re: Ariana and the passage, I never thought of it, but I agree, it doesn't make sense.
Next week is going to be heavy, y'all.
OK, really, I'll quit harping on this.
1) Rescuing, then punching Draco -- brilliant! Just what he deserved.
2) Trelawney finally found a good use for those crystal balls!
3) Did she just call them "Hogwartians?"
4) I'm so glad that the DA were able to support Harry with their patronuses (patronii?) when he wasn't able to make one himself. Love that moment of teamwork, of ensemble spirit. Harry really isn't in this alone.
5) Sev . . . nooooooo. . . .
6) "Look . . . at . . . me. . . ." -- Waaaaaa!
Okay, points 5 and 6 were exactly as I had written them in my notes as I was reading, but you all must know I'd have more to say about the death of Severus Snape than that.
First of all, I knew it was coming. He was too much of a tragic character to live -- he'd seen too much, done too many horrible things, had too many horrible things done to him. So, going into my first reading of the book, I knew that he would die. I wanted him to die heroically -- unlike some, I didn't doubt that he was on the right side (well, maybe for just a few minutes after the end of HBP, but I quickly recovered my faith). I wanted him to die defying Voldemort, wanted that moment of dawning comprehension in Voldemort's eyes when he learned that Snape was not the submissive, pandering right-hand man that Voldy had supposed. So, on the surface of things, Snape's death appears to be something of a disappointment.
But then I thought, how fitting. Snape, as I see him, is a man to whom public acclaim means little. If he really cared about how others see him, he'd wash his hair more often, for Pete's sake. He didn't need that moment in the sun, when everything came clear and those who thought he'd betrayed the Order learned that he was on their side all along, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. He didn't necessarily want it. He wanted to do his duty to Dumbledore and to Lily, and he didn't care what happened to him beyond that. That's why he released his memories to Harry at the end -- there he was, in his final minutes, thinking that he had failed. He knew Harry had to face Voldemort in order for Voldemort to be defeated, and he'd failed to get Harry there at the crucial moment. And then . . . there was Harry, and he, Snape, knew that if he could get Harry those memories, Harry would know what he had to do. Ultimately, with his last conscious act, Snape succeeded -- and I do count that as an heroic death.
I'd talk more about that last line, but I'd get all emotional and choked up, and you'd be bored, so we'll leave it at that.
*sigh* Sev. . . .
26 LG, Harry first learned about the room from Dobby. Actually, Dumbledore first mentions it being filled with chamber pots when needed. Was it really in Hogwarts, A History and Hermine remembered it later?
28 Elliot, you beat me to it :)
32 Foggi, Well put about Severus. That dying heroically and openly defying V. stuff was what I was getting at about Wormtails death, too.
foggi, you're so right in everything you say about Sev. He would have been more embarrassed than anything by being labeled a "hero." And it had to be difficult for him, on his dying breath, to offer to bare his soul to someone he basically despised. He wouldn't have wanted to live after that!
Here's to Severus Snape!
22.214.171.124: I'm actually pretty sure Draco was in school. When the trio are brought to Malfoy Manor, Narcissa says "My son, Draco, is home for the Easter holidays..."
25.31.7: I think that it was too hard for Harry to pull Draco and Goyle onto the broom together, It didn't say that he set down and they climbed on and Goyle was dead weight at the time. It makes sense to me that Ron and Hermione together were able to drag Goyle onto their broom while Harry pulled Draco onto his.
1. Neville just makes me so happy! Thinking back to when we first met him, who would have thought he would end up leading the resistance at Hogwarts? He really is a true Gryffindor!
2. Then look at how important Neville is! He's causing such a big problem for the Death Eater's that they go after his family! Like Xeno or the Weasley's, that's huge! (Not that I'm saying it's a good thing that they went after Gran, but it is impressive!)
3. Oh, and by the way, GRAN ROCKS!
4. I saw someone else was looking forward to the RoR in the movie. I'm not at all, I think the OotP movie really messed it up and I don't really know how they're going to fix what they did. I guess we'll find out in a couple months.
5. Neville's description of how the RoR works cleared up a lot of my issues with HBP and why Harry couldn't get in. (Although I still don't know why Trelawney could.)
6. "You don't have to do everything alone, Harry."
7. Jealous Ginny.
8. I love Ravenclaw's entrance. Their common room sounds like my kind of place too. Gryffindor's always sounded too dark.
1. Did Luna not get to stun anyone at the Ministry? I'll have to check.
2. Harry standing up for McG! Wish he hadn't Crucioed though.
3. "We teachers are rather good at magic you know." KIK!
4. Anyone else find it interesting the McG's manifestation of perfect happiness (i.e. her patronus) is herself?
5. Snape-shaped hole. ;)
6. The teachers are preparing to die for Harry, how amazing is that?
7. Percy. Now I can barely read!
8. I didn't realize it before, but that's a strange chapter ending.
Earlier someone said something about looking forward to the duel between Snape and McG in the movie as well. I can't say that I am, I was extremely disappointed in the Voldy/DD duel in OotP, which had a similar vibe to it in the books. But we all know I think they really screwed up the dueling in the movies (among other things.)
1. Stupid Pansy. Hooray for everyone else! (Except the other Slytherin's of course!)
2. Did Hagrid and Grawp leave a giant hole (no pun intended) in the defenses around Hogwarts?
3. "So what's new with you?" Ron - hilarious!
4. THE KISS!!!!!!!
5. Crabbe is pure evil.
6. True Harry fashion, he and his friends are okay and he immediately starts looking for the people who were trying to kill him two seconds ago -- to SAVE them!
7. Fred. I need a moment.
43.2 I kind of wondered how they got in so easy.
1. I love McG and the desks.
2. I'm also glad that Ron got to punch Malfoy.
3. Again, I was sure that was it for Hagrid.
4. Luna helping Harry with his partronus. How awesome is she?
5. Ah symmetry. "Are you a wizard or what?"
6. How come Sirius and Lupin didn't have to crawl through the tunnel?
7. A beautiful place to stop. A moment of peace before our final run.
45.6 Right! Also, Ron and Lupin were tied to Pettigrew when they left the shack. Not very easy in a tunnel that is now this small. As a stag, James would have never been able to fit, either. JKR must have had a bunch of "yes men" as editors.
i already read Cpt 33 and well, it's hard to go on. There's a lot of stuff crammed in these last 4 chapters.