F̶I̶R̶S̶T̶ E̶D̶I̶T̶I̶O̶N̶:̶ F̶L̶O̶W̶E̶R̶S̶ F̶O̶R̶ A̶L̶G̶E̶R̶N̶O̶N̶

The membership has elected the short story 🥇 Flowers for Algernon by Daniel Keyes to be Consensus Press' first edition.

Congratulations to the proposer, dlphcoracl, and to all who have participated in this experiment so far.

Because the membership has elected a proposal which includes content under copyright, the next step is simply to obtain permission from the copyright holder. As the Advisory Board made clear from the beginning, this is a potentially long process. Further, the proposal is ambiguous on some points. Per our rules:

Major decisions will be made by vote of the membership, if not already specified in the adopted proposal.

Therefore, we may request further member input.

We will keep members updated on this thread.

👏 👏 👏

>1 consensuspress: Congratulations! I’ll be watching eagerly for the copyright news.

Really good showing, I think. Congratulations to the selected proponents, and many thanks to the advisors and anyone else who’s helped push this as far as it’s come.

It seems that we now have a lot of details to work out on Algernon, and I'm not sure how best to go about that. Specifics need to be settled on, consensus-style, from paper to binding to type, not to mention illustrations. I believe dlphcoracl already specified certain features that we might be ready to go with. But I would imagine there are certain details we need to agree on. How should we go about this? It makes sense to me for dlphcoracl to be the point person and lay out for us a fairly specific vision - in glancing through the proposal I know there were details, yet there seems to be various options we need to choose from. I also think we need to decide as a group how long we're willing to wait for a copyright answer. So dlphcoracl, if you're up for it, could you tackle this? And if you already are working on it, then all the better :) I know I'd be happy to help out in any way. I'm excited for Algernon (it was my top choice) and I sincerely hope we can make it work.

>6 AMindForeverVoyaging: I think the details left to consensus really need to go out as a poll in an all-member email, and management ought to be the ones collecting the responses.

>6 AMindForeverVoyaging: >7 NathanOv: Per the rules

Major decisions will be made by vote of the membership, if not already specified in the adopted proposal.

but before holding any votes, we'll wait to secure copyright permission.

>9 consensuspress: I would be pretty surprised if the answer, in the end, is "No." In my ten years now of securing rights for Thornwillow, No Reply, and a few trade publishers, I've only had one "No" and that was because the estate was mid-negotiation to sell their rights to a major publisher (which then turned around and granted rights a year later).

I think this is just a matter of waiting – and, also, how long the membership will stomach waiting. If anything it will be a good reality check of what "negotiating for and securing rights," which sounds so glamorous, is really like. I met a man named Jim Bishop in Burley, Idaho a few years ago, who was stationed in Madrid as the navigator for a long-range nuclear bomber in the 1950s. Basically, at all time he had to be ready to jump in his plane and fly off on a suicide mission (only enough fuel for one way) to the USSR to potentially kill countless people. When I asked him what it was like, he said, "Well, we played cards... we listened to a lot of radio... sometimes we made up games to occupy ourselves..." Unless we get get lucky (hopefully so!), my advice to the membership is to forget about Consensus Press until further notice.

>10 grifgon: Wrt to how long the membership should wait, I think the deadline should be the latest date that allows the press to feasibly publish the book in 2023.

Having previously worked in publishing and observed how (not) rapidly our rights department responded to queries, I have always assumed that rights acquisition for any in-copyright work might easy take as long as a year.

>9 consensuspress:
>10 grifgon:
>11 ultrarightist:
>12 ambyrglow:

Since the 2nd choice (runner-up) of The Tale of Sinuhe does not have copyright issues, one possible solution would be to proceed with this as the first CP edition in 2023 while continuing to work on obtaining copyright clearance for Flowers for Algernon. If copyright permission does indeed take 12-18 months to obtain, it could then be issued as the second Consensus Press edition in 2024.

>13 dlphcoracl: The specific translation of The Tale of Sinuhe proposed is in copyright and would similarly require time to obtain rights.

>14 ambyrglow:

Well........ shelve THAT idea! (>13 dlphcoracl:)

>14 ambyrglow: Would it make sense to inquire on Sinuhe's copyright in parallel with the Algernon inquiry? Or is it considered in bad form to seek copyright permission and then later on say "never mind"?

>14 ambyrglow: You are correct! The original tale is not, but the translation is, so it will take some time to secure permission.

However, a request is readily submitted via the web.

>16 AMindForeverVoyaging: Makes sense to me.

>10 grifgon: "Unless we get get lucky (hopefully so!), my advice to the membership is to forget about Consensus Press until further notice."

Ah the awakening when the membership realizes what voting for a copyrighted works means...(See what I did there? ;) )

>11 ultrarightist: This seems eminently reasonable to me

I think the deadline should be the latest date that allows the press to feasibly publish the book in 2023.

except that contracts with craftspeople usually have to be worked out well in advance of the actual work. A lead time of ~6 months for printers is typical. So practically speaking, this might leave us turning away from Algernon pretty quickly.

Because the content on Sinuhe is all held by Oxford University Press, I'm pretty confident it could be secured quickly — probably just a matter of filling out a form.

The three leads Management have pursued so far are solid. I don't think we should start contemplating abandoning ship until at least a month or two has passed.

>20 grifgon: Agreed.

Well, that's a start!

That puts rights securement, if obtained, in the April timeframe. Is that enough time to feasibly publish the book in 2023?

>22 consensuspress: >24 ultrarightist: I'd be surprised if it actually took sixteen weeks. I've found HarperCollins to be pretty snappy. That said, just because HMH sold the rights to their edition to HarperCollins, doesn't mean HarperCollins has the ability to grant permission to reprint the story. We still have no indication actually of who or what owns the intellectual property and who or what has the ability to grant reprint permission (two separate issues). The best case scenario is that HarperCollins or some other major publisher indeed owns the IP. That will make things super straightforward. The worst case scenario is that we have a John Shade / Charles Kinbote situation, where the IP is in the hands of some random relative or literary agent operating out of a strip mall.

I am very opposed to setting a 2023 publication deadline, and think expecting 2024 or 2025 is more reasonable. I want the best possible edition we can all agree on, not the swiftest.

>25 grifgon: "The worst case scenario is that we have a John Shade / Charles Kinbote situation, where the IP is in the hands of some random relative or literary agent operating out of a strip mall."

With Saul Goodman as the lawyer.

>26 ambyrglow:

FWIW, I totally agree. Do it once, do it right.

>26 ambyrglow: I thought the concept is for the press is to publish one book a year. Will the hired help have the capacity to work on more than one project concurrently from CP if Algernon bleeds into 2024/25? What happens to the first half of 2023 if we are still awaiting rights procurement to Algernon? Is everyone idle or on hold? No hiring, no voting on particulars, etc. If so, then some of us may take Griffin's advice literally and just forget about CP as the publishing equivalent of vaporware.

Why don't we see how much time it takes to obtain the rights before having a discussion about "2bR02b" for Consensus Press?

>30 booksforreading: I agree completely. The membership voted (pretty emphatically!) for a title under copyright, presumably knowing that copyright takes time. And, as Biggie said, "If you don't know, now you know."

Oh good, I feel a ranked-choice vote on how many months to wait coming up...

>32 kcshankd: But first an up or down vote on whether to hold a ranked choice vote.

>33 grifgon: but before that vote, we establish the general consensus feeling toward Consensus Press’s current situation with a frowny or smiley face vote.

>26 ambyrglow: I support this fully, i am happy to wait for the best possible edition. Maybe this is simply an eye opener for all of us about the process needed to get a book made. The plan is to do 1 book a year and it seems that due to various practical issues, once a book is chosen it could take upwards of 12+ months to finalize, which I am fine with. There will almost certainly be cross-over between editions, so by the time we vote on the 2nd book for Consensus press, we might be in the final stage of delivery of the first book, with that same process repeated for the 3rd, 4th and later books. The end result is still on average one book a year. Considering how long we sometimes have to wait for pre-orders (i.e. Cemetery Dance) this will likely be what we need to adapt our expectation to.

I'm not in favor of changing the title in favor of a swift turn-around, it will set a bad precedence and will severely limit what books Consensus Press can do. If we make that decision now, then it will be required for future choices as well, do we really want to limit our options for the press to only out of copyright books or books that can be quickly turned around? Surely that will severely limit both the choices and in some cases the quality of options available to us. I'm not for a second suggesting that there are not worthy out of copyright options, I'm just not particular keen for those books to be the only choice

do we really want to limit our options for the press to only out of copyright books or books that can be quickly turned around?

No, but at least personally I don't want to have random gaps of 2-3 years if some book can't be turned around in a reasonable amount of time. Macy was able to juggle multiple projects at the same time to consistently deliver a new Private Press book of high limitation once a MONTH. We should be able to do one a year, otherwise I'm afraid enthusiasm for the press will wane.

I'll let Griffin and the board express their opinion, but I don't think we should be afraid of staggering projects and having 2 or 3 going at the various stages. E.g. start soliciting first round proposals from the members while the sheets for one book are at the binders, possibly with another book waiting on rights. Of course, I'm not in the industry and don't have a good idea about typical timelines for various stages, this was just an example.

Now, I have a question for Griffin. Right now we seem to be operating with timeframes randomly thrown by the members - 2024, 2025, etc. No, I don't want to wait until 2025, but I don't think we actually have any time ranges from the pros. Griffin, after the rights are secured - if they are secured successfully - what is the approximate timeframe we're looking at to produce a book like Flowers for Algernon or Sinuhe?

>37 elladan0891: "... but I don't think we should be afraid of staggering projects and having 2 or 3 going at the various stages."

I personally disagree about books needing to be annual, or about a 2-3 turnaround being particularly "unreasonable." I'm personally in the "give it all the time it needs" camp, as long as we know when to stop when it comes to chasing rights.

That said, I do think you've raised a good point - if members and management alike are confident enough in the progress come next September / October, I don't see a problem beginning the proposal process for the second edition before this one ships, and having them continue to be staggered if needed.

>37 elladan0891: I'm also concerned about enthusiasm waning. I'm understanding more and more how unpredictable and mysterious the copyright process can be. But I also believe that most presses work on multiple projects simultaneously, and while they await a copyright answer (or some other issue) on one project they will shuffle around other projects and work on them in the meantime. We have just this one project, so when we await copyright everything comes to a screeching halt. I have zero problem with waiting a while (and I'd still like consensus on what "a while" should be) but I also would really like to have a book produced in 2023.

>38 NathanOv:

Well stated and my feelings as well.

Putting this in perspective, the editions from many small private presses often take far more time than avid collectors would like. St. James Park Press (James Freemantle) is the poster child for this, with An Albion in the Antarctic taking more than a year longer than planned and '1984' possibly not being shipped in 2022. However, this poses no problem for me and I am prepared to wait as long as it takes James to fully realize his ambitious goals. Same can be said with regard to waiting for planned editions from the Foolscap Press, the Barbarian Press, the Salvage Press, etc.

If it promises to be an exceptional private press edition it is worth the wait, unless something happens to interrupt the slow, steady work flow toward completion.

>39 AMindForeverVoyaging: Yep. And the more I think about it, the more I believe that we should have at least 2 confirmed titles at any given time in order to avoid wasting time. I'll be perfectly fine waiting 4 months for Algernon rights to be secured before the actual work on the book begins. However, if something goes wrong during the rights negotiation stage for Algernon or any other book in the future, and I think we all got a feeling by now that acquiring rights is generally speaking an uncertain process with widely differing timeframes, we'll end up wasting months for no good reason.

But if we have 2 books, whether Algernon and Sinuhe or Alegernon and the winner of the next title selection, we could submit requests for rights for both books at the same time. We'd give priority to the book selected earlier, of course, and give some reasonable time to negotiate rights for it (perhaps we could vote/agree on what timeframe would be considered reasonable), but if something goes wrong or simply gets dragged for too long, we'd already have another book ready to go. That can potentially save us months and even years down the road. And if everything goes well with the rights for the first book - great, and by the time it's produced we'll have an advantage of having the next book in the pipeline all ready to go.

>40 dlphcoracl: But there's a difference between waiting for a craftsperson to get a job done well and waiting for a yes-or-no answer. After waiting a reasonable time, why not move forward with a different project and revisit Algernon in the future? And keep in mind the Algernon answer might wind up being "no," leaving us with nothing at all if we opt to wait indefinitely.

>41 elladan0891: I think this is a fine idea. Assuming that the intent is to eventually make both book that are in the queue, then it circumvents the whole "asking for rights on a maybe contingency" problem. Only the folks at CP know if they have the bandwidth to run concurrent efforts, but if they do, I think this is a smart way to go.

>42 AMindForeverVoyaging:

Agree that a reasonable time line should be established by the Consensus Press board for acquiring copyright permission.

>40 dlphcoracl: If production of a book takes over a year - so be it, I'm fine with it as well. Although we don't have anything super-fancy like Foolscap's hand-illuminated volumes going at the moment, so I'd think it won't take as long to produce Algernon as it did Mandeville. But I understand, hiccups happen, that's fine. What I try to avoid is unnecessary waste of time and maximize efficiency without any impacts on the quality of the projects.

Basically by the time Algernon is in production - assuming rights will be secured without any problems - I think we should select the next title AND start negotiating rights for it, so by the time Algernon is produced we don't need to wait many more months to even get to the point of producing the next book (presenting and evaluating proposals, going through the uncertain stage of securing rights). Basically like any successful business/endeavor, we should do some work to have the next product in the pipeline.

And I think we should start thinking about the next book in the pipeline now. Personally, I'd be very happy with Sinuhe being the next book, and I think it would be a good idea to inquire about Sinuhe's rights now, so that we'll have a back up if something goes wrong with Algernon, or simply have the next book ready to go without having to wait on rights again once Algernon is done.

>43 Shadekeep: Right, the intent is to have both books produced in the order they were selected. But if something goes wrong, the order in which they are produced might be reversed. Or, if the first book proves to be impossible to print because of rights, at least we would save several months having started the process for the next book already.

I do think it would be wise to always have a project or two in the pipeline.

Oh, and I too am happy with Sinuhe being the second one pursued in parallel, if that's what CP prefers. Probably should go to a vote, but given the support for it I think it should be fine. Assuming the rights for it can be secured, of course.

>37 elladan0891:

Griffin, after the rights are secured - if they are secured successfully - what is the approximate timeframe we're looking at to produce a book like Flowers for Algernon or Sinuhe?

It depends on the craftspeople who are hired and their schedules. The bindery work will be easier to hire and quicker than the printer. Printers are much more variable. In short: We'll know how long it will take when the craftspeople we commission tell us. It's possible that a relatively short text like this could be popped into a Heidelberg and printed in a week, but also it's possible that no Heidelberg printer in the world has a week to spare until six months from now.

Everybody suggesting that CP simply pursue two projects (or more!) at once are right that this is typical for a fine press to do. Even a private press! I currently have two editions shipping, three in production, and five in the pipeline, in my one-man workshop. But you're overlooking the fact that CP is made possible by an all-volunteer team who did not sign up for full- or even part-time management of a profitless press.

Patience: It will take however long it takes. If members lose interest, then this process isn't for them.

Or, the membership can vote on a deadline for hearing about copyright from Algernon. So long as a process change doesn't contradict the rules, I think that any member can propose one using the format that Management established in: https://www.librarything.com/topic/344030#n7924676

My opinion is that the winner is the winner until it is deemed undoable, whether that is via lack of copyright rights or what. At which point there is a process in place to replace it with the second-place book.

If we're going to put a second book in process in parallel, it should be through submission of new proposals going through the two-tiered voting process. Of course, members can continue to propose the same book they proposed last time, although I'd personally like to see new proposals. And maybe if the winner of "Consensus Press Book #2 (CP2)" proves to have no copyright issues and can be started on at once while Flowers for Algernon(CP1) is still awaiting rights, we can vote on whether to proceed with CP2 as the first book that actually comes off the press. And then come back to CP1, which will hopefully be ready to go by then.

Maybe if CP2 is a book I'm wildly enthusiastic about, I'd purchase the CP1 that I'm not at all enthusiastic about just to stay in the club.

>22 consensuspress: I have the contact details for Harper collins, US rights, message me off list if you want, who owns the euro rights? m

>41 elladan0891: "However, if something goes wrong during the rights negotiation stage for Algernon or any other book in the future, and I think we all got a feeling by now that acquiring rights is generally speaking an uncertain process with widely differing timeframes, we'll end up wasting months for no good reason."

That is precisely my concern, too, and the gist of of my comment above >29 ultrarightist:. I too, do not want a gap of 2-3 years between publications.

>51 marceloanciano: Thanks Marcelo. We have a contact for HarperCollins, and have emailed them. We are hoping that they have the ability to grant Worldwide permission. We will see.

I see this like starting a winery. The first red wine needs quite some time before the product is ready for market. Rush it--substitute it--and it becomes crap. Obviously, cut the vine if the dream is dead, but until then don't think about it. Hard to do, but well worth the wait!!

>55 consensuspress: very exciting well done and thank you for all the work in the background!

I second that - thank you for all the work you have done on behalf of CP.

Thank you, Mark, for taking on this role, and I have every confidence you will do a fantastic job.

I know Mark will do a great job. The book is in good hands.

>58 consensuspress: Many members might know Mark from his Instagram. I consider him one of the sharpest curators of private presswork out there.

Mark is an old-school graphic designer and typographer (which means he knows what the heck he's doing). Unfortunately, the quality of digital typesetting has noticeably plummeted in publishing over the past twenty years as the old guard of book design have retired. With the widespread availability of InDesign, many books are being designed by well-intentioned amateurs (the sort who might refer to a "typeface" as a "font"!). Mark, on the other hand, knows what he's doing. His agreeing to design the first book is a huge win for Consensus Press – and a relief. The book is in highly capable hands. In short, WE'RE LUCKY TO HAVE HIM.

Thank you all for these kind, supportive comments. It's great to know you are happy with having me on board for this important publication. I hope It's not too long before I can get cracking!

Very happy with the choice. Thank you Mark for taking this on!

>63 Praveenna_Nagaratnam: Thank you, Praveenna!

>66 consensuspress:
Everyone is on holidays at this time of year. Patience will be necessary.

Just curious and too lazy to search, but is there an agreed upon time limit to waiting for permissions? Although, I rather suspect that is dependent upon our desired publishing schedule, isn't it?

>68 Glacierman: No deadline has been proposed or voted upon.

>69 consensuspress: Thought not. Thanks.

>66 consensuspress: I'm curious, are management pursuing copyright leads for Sinuhe at the same time?

I could see whether or not Sinuhe seems promising being a big factor in voting for an "Algernon" deadline, especially if it's an easy yes or a hard no.

>71 NathanOv: The short answer is no. This is partially because we have reason to believe that the copyright situation for The Tale of Sinuhe would be straightforward.

No replies means that nothing has commenced. I think it is time to discuss and decide how long we wait.

>75 ultrarightist: Agreed. I feel this whole effort may have lost momentum and enthusiasm due to the delays.

>74 consensuspress: Are we still waiting for replies on the first contacts made? Or has there been any attempts to follow up on those first contacts?

>77 Dr.Fiddy: We've followed up on our original contacts more than once.

>76 Shadekeep: "Delays" isn't the right characterization. The copyright process can be slow, and members were made aware of this fact at every step of the process.

Our best lead, HarperCollins, has given a 16 week estimate for when we can expect to hear back. That is early April.

>78 consensuspress: Our best lead, HarperCollins, has given a 16 week estimate for when we can expect to hear back. That is early April.

Oh. My.

>78 consensuspress: "Delays" isn't the right characterization.

True, a delay implies a goal is forthcoming but held up. It's quite possible this will merely fail to pan out at all.

Still, chin up, glass half full, may not rain and all that. A chance for a positive outcome is better than nothing.

>78 consensuspress: I appreciate the additional information. A wait with an (expected) end date is far more bearable than an interminable one.

While we reached out to a specific agent, we have reason to believe he is no longer overseeing the Daniel Keyes estate. We're hoping to get a reply with a contact for the new agent.

However, if any members want to try their hand at some detective work, here's the mission: Who at the William Morris Agency represents the Daniel Keyes estate?

Is Mel Berger with William Morris Endeavor the old or new agent?

>85 consensuspress: To add a bit of context here:

A fine press proprietor reached out to me saying that they had just signed a contract to print a limited edition of the novel Flowers for Algernon. Remember that the membership of Consensus Press elected the novella, which is fairly different. The proprietor asked that the press' identity be kept strictly under wraps.

The key information is this:

1. Another Flowers for Algernon is going to be printed by a fine press, albeit the novel rather than the novella.

2. Securing permission to do so took this other fine press roughly nine months.

I don't know if this affects the membership's commitment to the first pick, but I suggest a vote might be in order. We have a runner-up, The Tale of Sinuhe, lined up in any case.

The novel seems right in the wheelhouse of Suntup, but I don't know that they count as fine press (if they letterpress it, then maybe an argument could be made).

With regards to Consensus, I'd say have a general vote/poll to see if there needs to be a revote on the title. Some folks may see the two works as sufficiently different, others may want to offer something different for the flagship release.

In view of the above information, I would like to point out that the process of obtaining permission for Sinuhe, which of course is my entry, is straight-forward, as this can be done via the Copyright Clearance Center, and I rather doubt that it would take 9 months. I suggest that we move forward with the runner-up or we risk the project failing, and I would not wish to see that happen.

The final decision, of course, is up to the members.

With regard to Flowers for Algernon, which was my proposal:

The private press that has obtained permission to publish it is top-tier and I have little doubt it will receive a handsome treatment. In my opinion, the differences between the original novella and the subsequent novel are not sufficient to warrant two near-simultaneous private press treatments. I strongly recommend proceeding on to >88 Glacierman: - Glacierman's submission of The Tale of Sinuhe for the first Consensus Press edition. It will result in two splendid private press editions of very different works of literature and the hassle with obtaining rights will be entirely circumvented.

Win-Win.

Who says you can't have your cake and eat it, too?? 😃

Given the input from >88 Glacierman: and >89 dlphcoracl:, does the membership still need to vote on this, or should we simply proceed with Sinuhe?

Consensus press should just comission this other private press to do the edition for us, that'd be a time saver (I jest).

I think the writing is on the wall on this one (and Sinuhe will be on the page).

>88 Glacierman: >89 dlphcoracl: Agreed :)

Sinuhe certainly gets my vote, if we're going straight to the matter.

>93 Shadekeep: Mine, too!

I agree that the writing is somewhat on the wall. If Flowers for Algernon would take an additional six months to resolve the copyright, then I fear we'd potentially lose the thread on Consensus Press. Still, I think there ought to be an all-membership vote (i.e. a poll sent to the membership via email, not one simply posted on this forum).

>95 grifgon: 10-4

>97 consensuspress: Sounds good to me

I am also happy with the switch. Seems like a win-win to me as well.

I'm more than happy for you to proceed with Sinuhe.

I am going to be the one to throw a wrench in the works, I guess: I think the decision to switch titles is big enough that it deserves being put before the entire membership, and I have no reason to believe that most members check this forum on a daily basis. I don't object per se to Sinuhe but I do object to skipping the balloting process.

It's funny I take the news that another publisher will do Algernon as positive news that the estate will give permission, though it may take some time. Without knowing anything about the other publisher, I would prefer to stick with Algernon from the Consensus Press, though of course would abide with the majority.

Sinuhe got my vote :)

>86 grifgon: I’m assuming this is Conversation Tree Press?

>103 consensuspress: how long will the ballot run? A week?

Just now seeing this, but I support the change.